Why doesn't pve have pvp combo structure?

[Raikai]

You say consolidating buttons makes room for new skills, but then how long until you want those new skills consolidated and we're back where we started? After all, they all just deal damage.

You're completely ignoring the fact that the skills can do stuff like interaction, resource-management, etc. They can be something else than just an skill with a dps number to it.

About new skills being consolidated... It's inevitable. 3-4 expansions later, of course you'll have to revise everything and rearrange stuff to give room to more new stuff - That's exactly the premise of the OP. It's either that, or have your job never have anything new in future content. The way XIV leveling works is the same as WoW, you'll inevitably end with a bloat of unmanageable skills if you don't rework at some point. WoW though, lack severely at that because it "reinvents" itself with every xpac, and that's where the fault is.

[Achantion]

I reached my character limit on my last post, but the core of what I want to say is that each button should FEEL different.

If I press 1 and do damage, with nothing else, no animations locks, no buffs, debuffs or cooldowns. That feels very different from pressing 2 and dealing damage and getting animation locked or pressing 3 and doing damage while being locked out of that ability with a 20s cooldown. There are to many combo's right now in game that don't FEEL different but at the same time are making sure we don't get new buttons because of the bloat they cause.

My earlier 8 button example would require 15 buttons in the current system. That's practically half a console player's buttons, which is absurd as it would only do 8 things. But in the new system you would have a lot of space filled for gameplay and would only be using 30% of a console player's buttons. And as I've shown before, it doesn't make it any easier to use.

EDIT: Simple example of why I want consolidation:
Think of the DRK how it currently is, and consolidate Hard Slash, Syphon Strike and Soul Eater into a single button combo chain. This would leave you with 2 buttons:
1. Spinning Slash > Reprisal > Power Slash combo chain. Executing Power Slash grants a resource stack (3), and you are locked out of this combo until this resource is depleted.
2. Scourge, now a short duration DoT that requires 1 stack of the resource from the former button. But has a 20 second cooldown.

By consolidating a combo chain, brought back 4 abilities that got deleted and linked them to a new mechanic to manage. Making the class both harder to use, but giving it extra options without require additional buttons to use and without taking away anything else.

Consolidate Unleash and Stalwart Soul and you regain an additional button, which could be used for another combo. Maybe one with an animation lock or a casting bar.

[Seraphor]

Actually, I can see a case for SAM.
It's only the combo finishers that have unique effects, other than the two 2nd GCD's each applying a minor buff, so you could just have them as three buttons that cycle through the combo like Continuation, syncing up the first and second button presses so that you can switch between them on any given GCD, and apply the relevant Sen when completed. Meikyo Shisui could then fix each button at the last of the sequence until it's spent. My only issue is the discrepancy between the 3-combo Getsu/Ka and 2-combo Setsu finishers, and whether or not that would be too much to coordinate on the fly or if it would simply take a lot of getting used to.
This could then make SAM's combo system markedly different to the other melee and free up space for some more focus on Hissatsu skills.

I'm still not convinced about MNK and/or DRG though.
You say "the issue is it's designed that way" but then, it IS designed that way. MNK is 100% based around it's combo system, with each discrete GCD having it's own positional, it's own unique effect, and two skills to manipulate your combo progression. Your whole focus is on what part of the combo you are in on any given GCD, and muscle memory is very important for it.
I am all for making changes to some jobs, like SAM, to mix things up and create more variety between jobs, but in MNKs case, it's very much an intentional design choice, and by removing it's combo system you remove part of what makes it's specific job identity, and you also force MNK players to be constantly glancing at their hotbars to check what part of the combo they're on instead of relying purely on muscle memory. While this would be an issue for SAM only every 2nd or 3rd GCD, this would be an issue for MNK on every single GCD, while adjusting positions at the same time.

DRG is it's own beast, and unfortunately I haven't played it enough recently to be familiar enough with it's nuances to to make a solid case. However I know from optimising my MCH bursts lately that counting which Heat Blast you're on is essential in not clipping your GCDs (you need to hit 5 Heat Blasts and know when your 6th GCD is up so that you can get a Split Shot/Drill/Anchor in your Wildfire window as well) If you lose count and you go to hit Heat Blast as your 6th GCD again, it will fail, and you will clip, and you will definitely not fit a 6th weaponskill into your Wildfire.
You're watching your hotbar like a hawk at that burst moment, in order to hit your GCDs smoothly, and it requires markedly more focus than your 1-2-3 combo does. That's fine, it's a burst window, but it's not sustainable 100% of the time while also dealing mechanics.
But my reservation is that doing this to DRG's entire combo system, would turn it's entire rotation into this same GCD counting, hotbar watching exercise that MCH's Hypercharge/Wildfire window is. Instead of allowing your muscle memory to keep track of your combo progress, you're constantly counting "1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5..." and/or constantly staring at your hotbars instead of the battlefield.


So I would say, in the interest of keeping jobs different and interesting:
Consolidate SAM.
Keep MNK as it is, it's combo system is it's signature.
DRG is a beast of a combo system and if it needs consolidating, it also needs some concessions elsewhere or some kind of rework to allow for it.

[Achantion]

I don't think muscle memory is that different between 1-2-3 and 1-1-1. As such I don't see why it wouldn't be able to work with DRG.
MNK would indeed require the most work to adept, because it's the most mechanically ingrained with the current system. On the flip side, MNK has been a mess for many years now and hasn't seen it's gameplay evolve since ARR, so maybe taking some more liberties here and re-imagining the whole job might be an option too.

Either way, I'm only suggesting consolidation isn't bad when used to evolve the game. Because most people opposing it in here seem to think consolidation will result in simplification, which isn't necessarily true. Yet cry out every expansion when half their skill bar gets deleted, which is a direct result of NOT consolidating.

[Seraphor]

I don't think muscle memory is that different between 1-2-3 and 1-1-1. As such I don't see why it wouldn't be able to work with DRG.
MNK would indeed require the most work to adept, because it's the most mechanically ingrained with the current system. On the flip side, MNK has been a mess for many years now and hasn't seen it's gameplay evolve since ARR, so maybe taking some more liberties here and re-imagining the whole job might be an option too.

Either way, I'm only suggesting consolidation isn't bad when used to evolve the game. Because most people opposing it in here seem to think consolidation will result in simplification, which isn't necessarily true. Yet cry out every expansion when half their skill bar gets deleted, which is a direct result of NOT consolidating.

On the contrary, I've just explained why consolidation of those melee jobs actually makes them more complicated.
With individual steps of the combo having unique effects, you need to keep track of where you are in the combo, and as I explained with MCH's Heast Blast 'combo', essentially a 1-1-1-1-1-2 combo with weaving, you need to make sure you're counting your GCDs. If you don't, you miss that last '2', dealing 1/6th less damage with Wildfire and clipping your GCD which knocks your damage output down, potentially unsyncing your rotation if you keep doing it.

In other cases, muscle memory can do this for you, instead of counting 1-2-3, you're pressing X, Circle, Triangle, X, Circle Triangle... or whatever keys you've set them to. You know when you get to the last button in your sequence, you move your finger/thumb back to the start.
With the combo all on one button, you need to count, constantly, in order to ensure that the specific skills in the combo line up properly.

The reason this isn't an issue in PVP, is because PVP skills have been simplified to remove all of this nuance, so that you can focus on the battlefield, and react on the fly to your opponents and teammates actions, instead of executing a rote-learned and fixed rotation.

[Deceptus]

I'm still not convinced about MNK and/or DRG though.
You say "the issue is it's designed that way" but then, it IS designed that way. MNK is 100% based around it's combo system, with each discrete GCD having it's own positional, it's own unique effect, and two skills to manipulate your combo progression. Your whole focus is on what part of the combo you are in on any given GCD, and muscle memory is very important for it.

Except you are wrong about monk as well.

Monk DPS, outside of OGCD's has essentially two phases. The Buff Phase and the DPS phase.

The buff phase could entirely be done via the flank if Demolish was changed to a flank move rather than a rear move and Snap Punch was changed to a Rear move instead of a flank.

Resulting in the DPS phase being the rear.

With a new rotation that looks like this:

Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Demolish (Condensed to 1 button)
Bootshine > True Strike > Snap Punch (Condensed to 1 button), repeat
Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Demolish

All your buffs line up.

[Seraphor]

Except you are wrong about monk as well.

Monk DPS, outside of OGCD's has essentially two phases. The Buff Phase and the DPS phase.

The buff phase could entirely be done via the flank if Demolish was changed to a flank move rather than a rear move and Snap Punch was changed to a Rear move instead of a flank.

Resulting in the DPS phase being the rear.

With a new rotation that looks like this:

Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Demolish (Condensed to 1 button)
Bootshine > True Strike > Snap Punch (Condensed to 1 button), repeat
Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Demolish

All your buffs line up.

Despite the fact that Demolish and Twin Snakes have different durations, what about Leaden Fist?
And again, Perfect Balance and Form Shift. What are we doing with those? Just get rid of them? Do you understand why they exist?
Monk can break it's combo system. For the opener, you could go Twin Snakes > Snap Punch > Snap Punch > Demolish > Dragon Kick > Bootshine. How would you manage that with consolidated combos?

And even so, what I'm reading is "if you simplify the jobs so that you can consolidate the skills, then you can consolidate the skills." Well then they're not currently simple enough to consolidate are they? And you are therefore simplifying the jobs in order to consolidate them in one place and add in more complexity elsewhere.
This isn't solving any issues, it's just moving the goalposts, and if you do this in order to add more skills in elsewhere, what would those skills do that would make it so much more interesting? And I'd like examples, not just "it doesn't matter, anything could be interesting, just some kind of mechanics." because those skills could also be boring. For over 2 years, until the recent rework Monk received in the last major patch, it had two OGCD's that were essentially useless. So those non-combo skills didn't add anything to the job at all.
The fact that 6 buttons were used on this combo system didn't hold back the job design in any way, it still had room for additional skills to increase the jobs complexity, but they didn't do that.

Monk is all about it's combos. This all sounds like "I don't like Monk, change it for me" without considering if the current iteration of Monk appeals to Monk mains or other people generally as it is.


I've already given concession to Samurai. In fact I've even come around to thinking it would be a good idea, seeing as in my experience with SAM I haven't yet mastered using Third Eye properly due to it not being on my main xhotbar.
However, consolidating SAM's combos would probably require a little simplification:
Meikyo Shisui would have to be changed, in order to immediately progress each combo button to it's last step, and hold them there.
The effects of Jinpu and Shifu would likely have to be homogenised into one buff, so that landing on the 2nd step of any combo would apply it. Maybe even give it 2 stacks so you still have to complete 2 combos to get the full effect. this wouldn't be too much of a detrimental change to it as the rotation is already all about steadily building up power.

[Ultimatecalibur]

And again, Perfect Balance and Form Shift. What are we doing with those? Just get rid of them? Do you understand why they exist?

Perfect Balance was created as a quick generation/regeneration button for Greased Lightning in ARR. If you really want to keep the burst function it has now, it could easily be replace with a more engaging burst (i.e. Blitzes) as has been suggested by multiple posters is the Dps Forums.

Form shift was added to allow Monks to start combat/phases with a Formed Twin Snakes/Dragon Kick rather than a formless Bootshine. They could easily revert Form Shift back to its original Form cycling function which would allow Monks to cycle through the actions on their 2 combo buttons.

[MsQi]

Except you are wrong about monk as well.

Monk DPS, outside of OGCD's has essentially two phases. The Buff Phase and the DPS phase.

The buff phase could entirely be done via the flank if Demolish was changed to a flank move rather than a rear move and Snap Punch was changed to a Rear move instead of a flank.

Resulting in the DPS phase being the rear.

With a new rotation that looks like this:

Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Demolish (Condensed to 1 button)
Bootshine > True Strike > Snap Punch (Condensed to 1 button), repeat
Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Demolish

All your buffs line up.

Monk is designed to be able to switch between single and multi target mid cycle.

[Jirah]

Except you are wrong about monk as well.

Monk DPS, outside of OGCD's has essentially two phases. The Buff Phase and the DPS phase.

The buff phase could entirely be done via the flank if Demolish was changed to a flank move rather than a rear move and Snap Punch was changed to a Rear move instead of a flank.

Resulting in the DPS phase being the rear.

With a new rotation that looks like this:

Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Demolish (Condensed to 1 button)
Bootshine > True Strike > Snap Punch (Condensed to 1 button), repeat
Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes > Demolish

All your buffs line up.

how the hell would formless fist work since most of those skills are trapped behind other skills. it would not work for monk without dumming the job down, its aoe maybe but still formless fist exists so