Difficulty of Dungeons

[Wolfsbane706]

dungeons are supposed to be get in, get out though. I don't want to be spending upwards of 45 minutes in one.

This attitude here pretty much sums up why dungeons are designed the way they are.

[Jirah]

This attitude here pretty much sums up why dungeons are designed the way they are.

Putrid to say the best thing about dungeons is that they are quick....i dont "play" anything to get it over with. and people always act like we desire Dungeon savage (which is a fun concept) but Yoship literally said they will never make hardcore content for a 4 man ALL WE ASK is that they make them interesting add a few mechs add some curvballs why bother playing anything if its just to get out quicker.

[Rufalus]

Yep, still an issue in 2021. I've long had the opinion that they should do something different with dungeons or stop doing dungeons. Why waste so many new art assets on reskinning the same old dungeon format so many times. How about a dungeon where we pilot a flying mount and use its mount actions to fight enemies in the sky. How about some RNG stuff so it's not the same run every time.

Just changing the activities isn't enough either, because the rewards need to be reviewed too. I don't think it's good enough to bribe people into expert dungeons with high tomestone payout and just drop a bunch of trash gear there. You can say this about any content, not just dungeons. Same format, same rewards every year. They spend a lot resources changing the look of these things but the gameplay experience remains near identical. Blue Mage is the best thing to happen to dungeons in my opinion, because it finally gives us a new way to experience old places. It's something.

[Jirah]

Yep, still an issue in 2021. I've long had the opinion that they should do something different with dungeons or stop doing dungeons. Why waste so many new art assets on reskinning the same old dungeon format so many times. How about a dungeon where we pilot a flying mount and use its mount actions to fight enemies in the sky. How about some RNG stuff so it's not the same run every time.

Just changing the activities isn't enough either, because the rewards need to be reviewed too. I don't think it's good enough to bribe people into expert dungeons with high tomestone payout and just drop a bunch of trash gear there. You can say this about any content, not just dungeons. Same format, same rewards every year. They spend a lot resources changing the look of these things but the gameplay experience remains near identical. Blue Mage is the best thing to happen to dungeons in my opinion, because it finally gives us a new way to experience old places. It's something.

for rewards id love if they adopt a similar thing with raids being weekly drops, a way to get better gear gear and of course raising the current ilvl for said drops and maybe even some supplies for furnishes and mounts idk but the rewards are almost pointless besides the glam being hit or recycled, and the minion

[Absurdity]

At that stage, if their intention is purely a chore to be done with as soon as possible for rewards, it's worth asking why even have dungeons at all? Sure it keeps players on the treadmill, but there are probably more cost-effective ways of doing the same, especially when it doesn't matter if it's fun or not. Perhaps one reason we lost a dungeon per patch, the Devs simply thought "what's the point of using resources on this?".

People say they want to get in and out of dungeons quickly, but why is that? I'd go ahead and claim that it is because they are so boring. They offer nothing but those 90 tomestones once a day, it's just a bunch of hallways interrupted by a circle or square with a boss in it and they offer neither decent loot nor any kind of challenge or engagement, so of course you just want to quickly get those done and forget about them again.

Tbh the way dungeons currently are we might as well really get rid of them, atleast all the "expert" dungeons. In terms of efficiency they're a joke compared to hunt trains, where you gain almost double the amount of tomestones in the same amount of time.

[ZanderaSommers]

- they all follow the same template, a marathon track with 3 bosses and ads in between.

- overall difficulty is too easy, in every expansion.
> it is easy enough that you can clear them even with a tank missing (tested it so far in most dungeons in ARR...Oh, and we're talking about sync'd (no undersized party at max level) runs of course.

-Bosses are far too predictable and don't do enough overall damage.

- Ad's are just cannonfodder in dungeons, ...not enough to be a actual thread, allowing you to pull the entire set as a "balanced" party (tank,heal and the 2 deeps) without much consequences...
> strenghen them, and i mean alot (maybe even double their current damage on auto attacks) Normally in MMO's, dungeon ads hit really hard with their auto attacks and use skills that could easily threaten the whole party if not dealt with accordingly...

Those are my two cents on the matter, what do you guys think about it?

This is an interesting topic to chat about. Thanks for posting.

Two things about me: (1) I'm a new player so have only been doing dungeons in ARR and post-ARR content so far, and (2) I enjoy dungeons and will queue to do them just for fun, even if I don't need the EXP.

From the perspective of a relatively new player, (i.e. I don't have overtuned equipment,) I actually find the dungeons are difficult for new players, such as how many groups the tank pulls and unknown mob and boss abilities or mechanics. I notice in particular it can be pretty tough on inexperienced healers. I think part of it is also in leveling roulette, a lot of your abilities are taken away even if you're leveled past that point. I think the ARR dungeons are interesting and balanced well for new players to get involved and learn their role while providing a challenge.

To Anhra's first point that dungeons follow the same template, I noticed that level 50 dungeons (in the beginning of the 6/5/7 roulette) have a much more straightforward layout with less chance to take a wrong turn. I personally lament the more straightforward layout. As a player that specifically likes dungeons and learning their quirks, they became less intriguing. (I've heard from friends that it gets even simpler as the story progresses blah)...so I agree it would be good to have more variety, though I don't share the details on the grievances.

It's true the dungeon content has been there for a while, but quite a bit of love and attention went into creating them, including mechanics. I think that's something to not forget. While perhaps not keeping the exactly layout the same 100% of the time, I also like the cadence with 3 bosses in between mobs since it helps new players know what to expect, even if they haven't done the dungeon before.

[Fellgon]

Bring "permadeath" to 14, if not to lose your char by dificulty, a wipe could let you log in only in next week. or make you lose all your items, broke all your armor....i dont know.
Or may happen what happened to wow, players sugest something harder, and in the week of patch launch would be so hard that make all hardcore players stop playing. I give one week to see players disband new content.

Of course i would never play sutch content, cause im snowflake master! ;-)

This game have lots of chalenge content, just cause you mastered it, doesnt mean it is easy. For example, have you done palace of the dead from floor 1 to 100 with no deaths in the party?
Have you cleared trial in ultimate dificulty? That apears after you clear all extremes. I havent done it.

[Fellgon]

for rewards id love if they adopt a similar thing with raids being weekly drops, a way to get better gear gear and of course raising the current ilvl for said drops and maybe even some supplies for furnishes and mounts idk but the rewards are almost pointless besides the glam being hit or recycled, and the minion

aye! A new dungeon that drop house furnishes would be cool!

[Fellgon]

How about some RNG stuff so it's not the same run every time.

I like some of your sugestion, but RNG i didnt, if im correct RNG is what make players quit wow and come to this game. I mean, its nice know the items that always will be droped wen do dungeons.

[Vyrerus]

I'd like to talk about Dungeons

Unfortunately, the playerbase decided a long time ago that they don't want a modicum of challenge in their dungeons. When Pharos Sirius first came out, 3 out of 4 of its bosses were deemed to be more difficult than Ifrit Hard Mode and Garuda Hard Mode by the playerbase.

The response was basically, whenever you queued into it for your... was it still expert back then? I think it was just high level roulette. Anyway, you queue in, and instantly people would leave. It really wasn't that bad of a dungeon, because even prior to its nerfs, you could roll in there with 3 DPS and a Healer and clear it just fine(though Siren was a bit rough).

It had all of the stuff you're asking for. Faster, non-telegraphed attacks. Dangerous adds. The necessity for paced interrupts. Unique, never before seen debuffs(some of which have never been reused). Dangerous problem monsters in trash. Even got in on a little interactive dungeoneering with the two valves you have to close to access the third boss (granted they are just on the train track going up to it).

If they implement your changes, then they have to create new dungeons and a new roulette entirely(or keep said dungeons out of the roulette). For every person like you(and me) that they satisfy by making more engaging/challenging standard content, twenty more will shriek that the game shouldn't be that demanding. Shriek that their time isn't being respected. Shriek that it should get a brutal label and be its own vein of content. It's sad, but the more the game is brought to the mainstream, the less challenging all of its standard content will be.

Also the stat squish in 6.0 is not for the player's benefit. It is for the dev team's, so that they can reuse old calculations for balancing purposes. /shrug