Difficulty of Dungeons

[SiriusSaltstice]

dungeons are fun the first few times sure. after that, when it gets into the hundreds of times, you value efficiency more than fun. of course this is also dependent on how long one has been playing the game.

They are literally the same thing over and over. How they are fun even the first few times is a stretch.

[Luin]

Why are leveling dungeons more difficult than "Expert" dungeons" ?

It isn't just aggressive ilvl sync, or a lack of complete toolkit. Minilvl standard light party in any 80 dungeon is still easier than a synced standard light party in most current expansion dungeons. Compare Dohn Mheg's first two pulls to Anyder's final triple pull. It's roughly the same damage, relative to level? But the issue is Dohn Mheg, and most of the "harder" leveling dungeons, like Holminster or Bardam, has two high damage pulls back-to-back. Anyder's triple isn't threatening because you have all of your cooldowns across your entire party. Your DPS even have resources from the boss saved.

For instance, in Bardam's Mettle. It's not a matter of going from start to the stone heads. That's possible. But if you do, and your party DPS isn't decent, you're going to be dead before you even finish pulling the next group.

This has been the trend since Swallows Compass in Stormblood and it's only more frustrating with how few dungeons we get. (BTW, why even rotate dungeons out of Expert roulette? I stopped doing mine because both dungeons are awful now)

Dungeon difficulty is easily adjusted by players in the dungeon by just pulling fewer mobs.

[Anhra]

Dungeon difficulty is easily adjusted by players in the dungeon by just pulling fewer mobs.

Not only that, and even if you just pull the smallest amount of Monsters, which is usually just a Group of 2-3, a Healer can technically disable one single target for up to 52 seconds with sleep before it becomes immune to it, provided noone slaps it awake beforehand.

During Matoyas Relict, i noticed that the single target tankbusters from any Boss there do arround 95-100% of a synced down DPS maximum HP, and since it is always followed with a small breakphase of a boss that lasts a few seconds, it is enough of a time window to actually make any DPS Job a tank, as long as you provide them with a shield before it happens and heal them up afterwards.

[Liam_Harper]

dungeons are supposed to be get in, get out though. I don't want to be spending upwards of 45 minutes in one.

At that stage, if their intention is purely a chore to be done with as soon as possible for rewards, it's worth asking why even have dungeons at all? Sure it keeps players on the treadmill, but there are probably more cost-effective ways of doing the same, especially when it doesn't matter if it's fun or not. Perhaps one reason we lost a dungeon per patch, the Devs simply thought "what's the point of using resources on this?".

It doesn't help that they're stubbornly against Mythic+ and the "15 minute faceroll for tomes/exp" is the only format they'll consider. The fact they were happier simply deleting a dungeon every patch rather than even giving it a chance is just disappointing really.

[SiriusSaltstice]

At that stage, if their intention is purely a chore to be done with as soon as possible for rewards, it's worth asking why even have dungeons at all? Sure it keeps players on the treadmill, but there are probably more cost-effective ways of doing the same, especially when it doesn't matter if it's fun or not. Perhaps one reason we lost a dungeon per patch, the Devs simply thought "what's the point of using resources on this?".

It doesn't help that they're stubbornly against Mythic+ and the "15 minute faceroll for tomes/exp" is the only format they'll consider. The fact they were happier simply deleting a dungeon every patch rather than even giving it a chance is just disappointing really.

Please look forward to when dungeons are no longer hallways and just circle arenas.

[currentlemon]

Yeah, the dungeons are lackluster in this expansion compared to the previous ones. A chuck of the level 80 dungeons aren't exactly memorable, though the levelling dungeons are pretty good. Still, the difficulty needs to be cranked up a bit and I wouldn't mind seeing seeing more than just two mob packs and a boss.

I think someone mentioned this in the DPS forums that a way dungeons could be revamped is by adding branching pathways. If the dungeon is cleared at a certain amount of time or if you do a successful pull and kill the trash mobs quickly, then an alternative path is given to the player where they face harder mobs and even a harder boss. This new boss has mechanics similar to that of 8 man raids/trails (non-Savage mind you) and an enrage timer. The rewards for taking this alternative path are better gear, mounts, gear for the sake of glamor, or perhaps crafting material to craft even stronger gear. I believed this was how it worked in the MMO SWTOR and I'm certain other MMOs have done the same.

Perhaps SE can learn from some of these MMOs and apply them in their own way in FFXIV. Maybe add a Phase 2 of the final dungeon boss if beaten quickly? That would be great! Or how about rewarding players for managing mass pulls by opening a branching path that leads to a harder second boss? The ideas are endless.

[KikiTia]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but as some have stated I feel that it's seen as casual content, and personally I would prefer it stay that way. It is nice to have dungeons you can simply go into, clear, get out and be done with it, without worrying about much hassle. However, I think what we could use is some high end dungeons. Instances created for a small group designed to challenge your skills and how well you know your class. Like Zepla HQ has stated on multiple occasions, something like a Mythic+ system from WoW, or just proper hard dungeons period.

[Jirah]

I’ve made many topics about this and I still to this day want a stronger emphasis on dungeon design as my most wanted ff14 dream, more so than to fix that godawful stump of a job MCH that I won’t shut up about

On topic on topic! So the 80s dungeons thus far are complete crap, being less than what we had in other expansions withstanding. but let’s focus on one. Matoyas Relict

So far this has been my least favorite dungeon in all of SHB, surpassing Holm Switch even. That’s thanks to a variety of things that are common annoyances in dungeon design

1) GATES! dungeon is straight up afraid to let you go too far and gate then crap out of you. This dungeon being the worst at it.

2) Weak Fodder! Dungeon trash are essentially bowling pins, FF14 has done essentially every interesting set piece regarding trash but just don’t revisit or revise them. Stuff like Final Sting or on-route mechanics you almost never see in dungeons anymore. Especially hazards, I miss hazards

3) Trivial Bosses, For the longest time the boss fights were the only highpoint but thanks to them being absurdly under-tune, and recycled mechs like stack markers (which every boss in the Relict has) it gets boring. There is next to no threat besides the Final Boss snort thing that the boss does once. Also enrages aren’t a bad idea give DPS a reason DPS. Amourot has a Enrage...

Dungeons lack a certain spice, this is 80s! They should not be afraid to throw curveballs. 50s dungeons shouldn’t out shine high end ones. Also just putting this out there but Trusts aren’t to blame.

[Anhra]

Also enrages aren’t a bad idea give DPS a reason DPS. Amourot has a Enrage...

Agreed, but so far most Dps checks for enrages arent as tight as they should be. During a unfortunate run of mine once on Amaurot (synced), which ended up be running the whole thing with me as SCH along with 2 BLM (tank never showed up thanks for running it at midnight), it turned out to be more educational than i expected it to be. We managed to clear the entire place at a moderate pacing, thanks to the really long breaks which the bosses do before using another skill (along with their laughable auto attack damage), The second Boss was a bit tight for 3 people but it worked.


With the Endwalker Livestream, it has been confirmed that were getting a silver thrown at us which comes with a small overall nerf on all things number related (as a example, according to Yoshi P., a ilvl535 BLM which does 50K Fire IV damage will lose arround 10k Damage in Endwalker), which sounded like a really great thing which i was excited the most when they announced it, but when they said that Enemies get the same treatment, my excitement all crumbled to dust.
But i think Materia also plays a large role in our current Dungeon situation, since they boost character stats quite into silly amounts. This could easily be fixed by either removing it completely or reworking Materia into something that doesnt boost overall Damage, but serves only for utility reasons that doesn't influence combat directly. But as things currently are, imo, removing it would be the best solution, until the game becomes hard enough that we actually need something like this, which doesnt make things unbalanced as hell.

[Jirah]

Agreed, but so far most Dps checks for enrages arent as tight as they should be. During a unfortunate run of mine once on Amaurot (synced), which ended up be running the whole thing with me as SCH along with 2 BLM (tank never showed up thanks for running it at midnight), it turned out to be more educational than i expected it to be. We managed to clear the entire place at a moderate pacing, thanks to the really long breaks which the bosses do before using another skill (along with their laughable auto attack damage), The second Boss was a bit tight for 3 people but it worked.


With the Endwalker Livestream, it has been confirmed that were getting a silver thrown at us which comes with a small overall nerf on all things number related (as a example, according to Yoshi P., a ilvl535 BLM which does 50K Fire IV damage will lose arround 10k Damage in Endwalker), which sounded like a really great thing which i was excited the most when they announced it, but when they said that Enemies get the same treatment, my excitement all crumbled to dust.
But i think Materia also plays a large role in our current Dungeon situation, since they boost character stats quite into silly amounts. This could easily be fixed by either removing it completely or reworking Materia into something that doesnt boost overall Damage, but serves only for utility reasons that doesn't influence combat directly. But as things currently are, imo, removing it would be the best solution, until the game becomes hard enough that we actually need something like this, which doesnt make things unbalanced as hell.

wait enemies also do the same damage? thats a massive bummer as i was excited to have harder early game content