Difficulty of Dungeons

[Rilifane]

This is not about "worst attitude", dude. You project it into others. You have simply a different opinion. When I run roulettes, I'm ususally more "scared" of getting a Stormblood-Shadowbringers dungeon because boss mechanics have become more and more obnoxious at that point. Most bored long-term players can't even fathom this train of thoughts because they've run the same dungeons so many times that everything's memorized and saved in muscle-memory, but this doesn't necessarily apply to story players who run - outside of roulettes - most dungeons once and be done with it. And believe it or not some people genuinely struggle with the "harder" dungeons, despite this topics "lololol braindead easy lololol" consensus. Maybe the main issues lies between FFXIV's choreography design of obnoxious mechanics. So think holistic and not "game is eazy brainded lolz, make it harder." Try at least to offer something meaningful.

At one point we've all been the first timer that didn't know mechanics and either had to follow the group (given that they knew what to do in the first place) or figure it out on the fly if we didn't do it with trusts. I did all the ShB dungeons blind and via DF, usually with the whole group going "first time" and "same" x3 and before I even touched endgame content so I definitely didn't have the general understanding for mechanics and how to recognize them quickly nor had I any mechanic memorised or spoiled by guides.
Still, a boss raising one hand with something like "Left-side knockout" is kind of a pointer that maybe I shouldn't stand right under said hand. Or numbers over your head appearing might mean something is going off on all party members in a certain order... maybe let's not stack, then? None of the mechanics straight up one shots you. They hurt, but you survive and know that whereever you stood was clearly a danger zone. They telegraphed the attacks shortly before going off in ShB but the timing is reasonable enough that if you didn't completely tunnel on buttons and had a general idea where it might be safe, it's enough time to make small adjustments.
I know how it feels to be a blind first timer.
I also know how it's entirely possible to figure out mechanics without guides or a very in-depth understanding of the game. And if someone has a "I have no memories of this place" moment and repeatedly screws something up, they die, get ressed and continue. Not the end of the world. Dungeons don't need a "no death" guarantee. I definitely don't remember mechanics from the lv 70 dungeons because I did each dungeon only once to get to ShB and that was it. If I guess wrong on a mechanic, I get a vuln up and at worst, I die after some fails.

[catofsnake]

Coming back to this thread after playing qitana ravel, I was thinking; boss mechanics themselves are fine, they just need to be extrapolated on/made denser. For example, the first boss of Qitana Ravel has 2 simple attacks that are obvious in how to dodge, but create a small catch when they both come up at once. One marks one of two statues at the front of the arena to attack one half of the arena, and the other makes one half of the boss glow to indicate that it'll attack *that* half of the arena. This makes it so the tank has to orient the boss around to create a safe spot, instead of just standing at the north all the time. However, when this finally comes up, the fight's nearly already over.

What if instead, there were 4 pairs of statues stationed at cardinal points or whatever around the arena? This could make it so you have to look around for which set of statues are going to attack, and move accordingly. The safe 'half' of the arena could be divided into safe quarters, when 2 statues light up at once. The boss' other attack could be made like titan E4S's, where it'll light up a random half 3 times, needing you to remember where to move when the attack starts, and making the tank position accordingly so that both sides are available to move to. Just, a simple extrapolation of dungeon bosses' already existing mechanics could make them much more engaging. notably, Qitana Ravel also somewhat makes its first trash pulls somewhat interesting with the 'hide behind walls to avoid the lasers' mechanic, too. The pretty environments and potentially fun mechanics are already there, they just... need to be fully used.

[Anhra]

I second that notion. DR was a nice change of pace but beyond that the dungeons are absolutely boring. Too static, nothing real happens in them gameplay-wise and we've been dancing that same chestnut for almost a decade now. It's more than time for a change.

A bit late with my response on that, but to be fair, the Idea with the Traps would spice up regular Dungeons quite good if they would become a thing (with only certain jobs being able to detect them, like physical ranged dps for example).

But in order for something like this to work properly, we would need to have the auto HP regen that happens outside of combat (and inside as well to a degree) to be completely gone or reduced quite hard so that this "pure/shield healer" vision from Squeenix could work alongside it (and have them constantly on their toes). Why you ask? Because it is waaaaaaay too powerful and having it removed would put Healers in Dungeons finally on a better spot than where they are currently now.

Bonus points if the Ressurection debuff becomes more punishing and more importantly, far longer in duration (like 10 Minutes for a -10% ALL stats squished which can stack up to 5 times, with duration being capped at 10 Minutes, but the timer resets if you die during the duration).

[Vyrerus]

A bit late with my response on that, but to be fair, the Idea with the Traps would spice up regular Dungeons quite good if they would become a thing (with only certain jobs being able to detect them, like physical ranged dps for example).

But in order for something like this to work properly, we would need to have the auto HP regen that happens outside of combat (and inside as well to a degree) to be completely gone or reduced quite hard so that this "pure/shield healer" vision from Squeenix could work alongside it (and have them constantly on their toes). Why you ask? Because it is waaaaaaay too powerful and having it removed would put Healers in Dungeons finally on a better spot than where they are currently now.

Bonus points if the Ressurection debuff becomes more punishing and more importantly, far longer in duration (like 10 Minutes for a -10% ALL stats squished which can stack up to 5 times, with duration being capped at 10 Minutes, but the timer resets if you die during the duration).

They already moved away from a punishing weakness. It used to lower all stats and HP, such that when you got back up mid fight, you needed extra care and stoneskin/adlo to live through the next mechanics. I can't remember exactly when, but I think it was in Stormblood? Hard to remember, but they made it so weakness only lowers DPS stats, so that all you need is HP recovered to live.

[currentlemon]

snip

Agreed. There isn't any need to dumb down the game, especially when dungeon design is getting a bit stale. Sometimes, having an easy game does not equal fun. The more complexity the game has, the better. And besides, if you are doing level 60+ dungeons at this time, there is no excuse. You should know the mechanics of your chosen job by now.

[Iscah]

However, when [the combined mechanic] finally comes up, the fight's nearly already over.

How are you killing the boss that fast? I'm pretty sure we see the combined mechanic two or three times when I've done it.

[catofsnake]

How are you killing the boss that fast? I'm pretty sure we see the combined mechanic two or three times when I've done it.

I misspoke, that sounds about right. Still, it'd be nice to see that mechanic and others be explored a bit more rather than leaving it in its most simple form.

[ReynTime]

At one point we've all been the first timer that didn't know mechanics and either had to follow the group (given that they knew what to do in the first place) or figure it out on the fly if we didn't do it with trusts. I did all the ShB dungeons blind and via DF, usually with the whole group going "first time" and "same" x3 and before I even touched endgame content so I definitely didn't have the general understanding for mechanics and how to recognize them quickly nor had I any mechanic memorised or spoiled by guides.
Still, a boss raising one hand with something like "Left-side knockout" is kind of a pointer that maybe I shouldn't stand right under said hand. Or numbers over your head appearing might mean something is going off on all party members in a certain order... maybe let's not stack, then? None of the mechanics straight up one shots you. They hurt, but you survive and know that whereever you stood was clearly a danger zone. They telegraphed the attacks shortly before going off in ShB but the timing is reasonable enough that if you didn't completely tunnel on buttons and had a general idea where it might be safe, it's enough time to make small adjustments.
I know how it feels to be a blind first timer.
I also know how it's entirely possible to figure out mechanics without guides or a very in-depth understanding of the game. And if someone has a "I have no memories of this place" moment and repeatedly screws something up, they die, get ressed and continue. Not the end of the world. Dungeons don't need a "no death" guarantee. I definitely don't remember mechanics from the lv 70 dungeons because I did each dungeon only once to get to ShB and that was it. If I guess wrong on a mechanic, I get a vuln up and at worst, I die after some fails.

On top of all of this, Trusts exist. They're slow to kill but they never get mechanics wrong, which is why they're useful for learning. So the fear for Lv70+ dungeons is very pointless.

[currentlemon]

The final dungeon of Shadowbringers is a step in the right direction when in comes to dungeon design for me. The bosses were great and their mechanics were wonderful, especially Bahamut, and the mobs were actually decent. I'm not going to lie, seeing Akh Morn surprised me, but it was exciting to see and it provided a heal check. Just wish the damage on that was higher.

[Jirah]

Snip.

"story players that run it once" Even in that context you should already be aware of half the mechanics being at 80. Im aware of story players but this is one persons take and Im confident I can find many people sick of the same mind numbing dungeons being generally far to safe as "endgame dungeons" disregarding the casual tag.

Also There's always trusts for people like that so there you go, and I hate to break it to you but I think your in the minority on thinking the current dungeons are "too hard" this is the first time hearing this actually since the whole Aurum vale thing before the unfortunate nerfs. Trusts help for those that are only selectively play the game and shouldn't cater to that amount of casualization any further as seen by these topics propping up so often and the content as a whole.