Positionals

[Fyce]

I don't like positionals. I don't feel that they are an interesting and rewarding mechanic. Which is why I usually level melee DPS last... if ever. Felt that way since 2.0.

Why not interesting? Because it's an extremely basic and monotonous mechanic that only make a fight interesting until you memorize it with its True North windows. There's very little adaptation to have after a point, as you quickly give up when partying with a beyblade tank. There's also a point to be made in terms of boss design where taking positionals in consideration was a bottleneck to the game designers' creativity. The introduction of True North and the mutiple patches to make positional less of a concern allowed for more creative boss mechanics. That and the introduction of the "full circle" bosses.

Why not rewarding? The DPS increase is quite small, the feedback is almost non-existant (except for Bootshine's crit), SE has been trying their hardest to make that mechanic almost completly unrelevant. To me, it's definitly more punishing than rewarding in the sense that it has bigger "feel bad" moments when you fail than "feel good" ones when you succeed. The punishing aspect for failing is also the reason why it has become so trivial: SE don't want to "punish" underperforming players, but also has to keep the best players in check so the difference isn't too big. Besides, hitting your positionals is the expected outcome, the norm. Which is also why it doesn't feel rewarding or exceptional at all.

So, without a feeling of being rewarded for doing a bland mechanic, while also seeing SE trying their best to erase the difference of hitting them or not over the years, I don't think I'll ever like that mechanic.

That being said, do I want positionals to go away? Nah. At least not on MNK and DRG, they'd lose too much mechanical gameplay at this point. NIN and SAM are meh in terms of positionals, but they might as well keep it. Besides, some people had their fun for years with those jobs and their positionals. It'd be harsh to take that away from them.
However, I'll say that it'd be pretty great that at least 1 melee DPS out of the 5 total with Endwalker doesn't have positional. I don't think 1 out of 5 is a big request. I'm pretty sure that SE can come up with another interesting and rewarding melee mechanic instead of copy/pasting the same one on all of their melee DPS jobs (because that's also a lazy thing to do).

Or at the very, very least, if SE wants to go with positionals yet again, make them interact with the job in an interesting, meaningful and rewarding way. Not a +10 potency or +5 gauge crap.

[ssunny2008]

snip

Well said opinion, but the thing is, i could take all your written stuff and put it in another point of view.

The biggest issue is the static rotation and like 0 tolerance to play around a lot of mechanics. Away from "how poor" a lot of mechanics have become, if 1 guy fails, it´s mostly a wipe. There are a lot of missed opportunities for different classes to keep the ball rolling or just no time for those smart over 9000 reactions.

Positionals on that side bring atleast something to do, to take care about in such static fights. Some ppl seems to like "staying still and playing 123", but tbh... gameplay-wise it´s just straight up boring. It might work in other games, but the mechanics there are not so obvious, those games are not that forgivable with just 1 rezz for the whole fight and not 100 rezzes / LB3. You don´t even have a 100% rotation, you´ve priorities, a faster GCD and even DD´s are able to tank a boss for a while with defensives and aggro ping pong etc... Healers have take care about mana, because any boss hits harder. Tanks have to swap or kite multiple times and need to manage the adds and multiple debuffs, etc... Those games are way more innovative than FF14.

Let´s say we would get ride of positionals for whatever reason. What do we get? Mudra? How innovative is it in the end, when you use combination X at the pull, combination Y when you´ve to leave the boss for 2s? It´s unique, but not deep or anything else. It´s part of your rotation and you may adjust with it to any boss mechanics. Otherwise 99,9% of all NIN´s stuck behind the boss and playing 123.
A job gauge? Press button X in your rotation when it´s filled?
You do nothing else than learning and playing down your rotation. Even phys. range with a bunch of proccs are like "1,2,1,2,1,2 oh procc,3, 1,2,1,2". Healers might be the only one with "a real impact" in kind of gameplay, because a good healer will always take care about other mistakes, maybe even use rescue.

That said, you can´t really bring something "deep" a lot of ppl talk about. In the end, it´s just pressing a button at moment X, thx to the given rotation. Positionals might have the same effect once you got used to them, but you still do more and might adjust to tank missplays.
Imagine the game would be build up more on skills like "rescue" and with multiple add-mechanics with kiting or "DPS-tanks", casts you´ve to interupt, more debuffs, more damage on the tanks, more mana issues and so on. But no... it gets even less, so all players do simple "spread & stack" mechanics and perform their rotation without the need or even the chance to adapt in some way.


And tbh... the reason, why positionals have such a low impact in potency or other stuff, is the casualization. SE wants pretty much everyone to clear everything but ultimate / the last tier fight. This means we´ve ONLY 4 fights every ~2 years a lot of players will never beat and in case of ultimate it´s a lot about "no time" instead of "no skill".
The current potencies allow the players to play 99,9% of all content in the game completely braindead. The additional potencies are just there, to give some extra % in damage to improve for those who want. Making them more rewarding would last in more cries from the casuals than the crying about the whole existence of positionals right now.

I can just speak for myself, but i can repeat it again and again... positionals are fine and way deeper than any other "class-mechanics" in this static rotation game. If someone really feels rewarded, because he played the rotation well or pressed button X because a job gauge or whatever got filled, maybe even because he did more damage thx to a class buff or better gear, then i don´t know... I would call a big GG! to someone who saved a run with his decision-making and given class tools, but not to someone who fulfilled his job in learning a rotation at a dummy after watching several class / bossguides.

[Fyce]

Well said opinion, but the thing is, i could take all your written stuff and put it in another point of view.

Of course it was just my opinion, just like your answer to me was yours. That's the reason why I started my post with "I don't like positionals." And sure, someone could oppose what I said with their own opinion. Which is exactly what you did. So what? If I don't like apples, you won't make me like them by saying that you do.

I absolutly don't think that positionals are as deep as you depict them. I also don't find jobs that don't need to move "boring". And I wouldn't call other game more "innovative" simply for being more action-focused. You seem to like the amount of unpredictability and added button press positionals give your job, while I clearly don't have the same feeling with this mechanic. You see welcome dynamism where I see an unrewarding chore.
It's just preferences, and trust me I wish I liked positionals like you do.

But preferences are the reason why you kinda became self aware when saying "Positionals might have the same effect once you got used to them, but you still do more and might adjust to tank missplays." ... because yeah, someone could very easily take all your arguments about procs, mudras and whatnot, and simply say that "positionals are also just simple button press". Your two following "buts..." can be easily debunked by saying that SAM and NIN don't do more positional than some proc focused jobs, and adjusting to tanks misplays is anecdotal. We're back to your first sentence, which also applies to you.

I already said that I'm fine for current melee jobs to keep their positionals because I don't want people like you to see what they enjoy go away. I though that was generous enough to be asking for the next melee DPS to break the mold so people like me who don't like positionals aren't completly hopeless to one day enjoy a melee DPS, no?

So, I don't really know what to do with your answer to be honest. At least -and even if it came a bit late- the "I can just speak for myself" is written in your post. But I don't get why you felt the need to "repeat it again and again" after reading mine. What made you answer me with your opinion yet again? Did you thought that repeating "positionals are fine and way deeper than any other "class-mechanics" again and again would make it more than just your opinion? Or that saying that first sentence, that my opinion can be opposed with another point of view, would also somehow make yours something else, more factual maybe? Doesn't really work like that.
Had you answered by sparkling a discussion about some points I made, well, fine. But it seems that you simply used my post as an excuse to state your opinion yet again. I'm sorry but I don't have much else to tell you. In these situations you just have to agree to disagree. No need to repeat yourself.

[LeonKeyh]

-snip-

The issue isn't necessarily that you stated your opinion. The issue is the original post here, and the same people in 2-3 other threads loudly declaring that they hate positionals and asking for them to be removed. There are people on the other side of the coin feeling the need to vehemently defend positionals so that a small joy of the melee DPS isn't stripped out because some people "don't like it." It's especially bad whenever the same people asking for positionals to be removed are saying that they make up less than 1% of total damage during a fight.

I'll admit, I'm pretty new to the game, coming up on 1 year in a couple of months, but it seems like the "high end" players are tired of seeing the skill ceiling continuously pulled down by people who seem like they "just don't feel like trying." The fact of the matter is that IF the math checks out and positionals make up less than 1% of total damage (those numbers are suspect, whenever I went through it seemed like it was more like 4%-8% with SAM on the low end and MNK on the high end, but I'll concede to <1% since I just looked at potencies and "guessed"), then people are asking to lower the skill ceiling a negligible amount.

The great news is, if you "don't feel like" doing positionals, it likely wouldn't matter much at all, especially in dungeons since most of that combat is going to be AE.

That's generally why people are so defensive about it. Positionals give something else to think of in what is ultimately a somewhat simple ability rotation for these classes. People (I) would be worried that removing positionals from melee classes would make melee classes unfulfilling like ranged physical classes.

People who play at a "high skill level" need something to strive for and positionals are a somewhat simple way to give them something to strive for while not punishing the lower skill level people. So, whenever people ask for them to be removed, people get defensive.

[Ryd]

Or at the very, very least, if SE wants to go with positionals yet again, make them interact with the job in an interesting, meaningful and rewarding way. Not a +10 potency or +5 gauge crap.

It should be noted that positionals used to be this way - with all the nice effects on the 1-2-3 chains dependent on hitting whatever positional was attached - but too many players complained for so long that they eventually toned them down into more of a perk than something that you had to nail or your rotation fell apart.

[ItMe]

It should be noted that positionals used to be this way - with all the nice effects on the 1-2-3 chains dependent on hitting whatever positional was attached - but too many players complained for so long that they eventually toned them down into more of a perk than something that you had to nail or your rotation fell apart.

With so many bosses / mini-bosses that just turn to target whoever or launch a mechanic, I'm glad TBH.
Positionals are cool, but random shit fucking up your rotation is not.

[Ralph2449]

Or at the very, very least, if SE wants to go with positionals yet again, make them interact with the job in an interesting, meaningful and rewarding way. Not a +10 potency or +5 gauge crap.

Disagree there, I think SE has reached the perfect balance in terms of positionals exactly because they arent a huge thing

So if you screw them up it isnt a big deal, the world didnt end and you ll still beat the encounter as long as everything else was done decently, this includes the many times you might miss them due to some form of mechanic targeting you. (Which you just know would be the go to excuse if dps was not enough if positionals were a huge thing)

It is a small thing that you can try maximize and improve, this means it is less about tryhard dps increase obsession some have(And would force onto others if it was a huge increase) and more about people who have a personal optimization drive and want that small extra challenge once they are used to their rotations to "perfect" things, so it is more about personal enjoyment rather than a mandatory thing.