Positionals

[Dzian]

One of the biggest problems with the "just stay behind the boss and hit buttons, don't worry about positionals" argument is that conflicts with another problem that some melee job players seem to think should also be "fixed", and that's "The boss sometimes does things that make me run away and I can't hit them!"

Removing positionals from the game means that SE's only real means of controlling melee players will be increasingly more elaborate AoEs, which will also negatively affect jobs with cast times, and honestly I think that will result is less interesting encounter design. One of the reasons I don't care too much about trying to do Savage/Ultimate is I simply do not have the time or willingness to learn what amounts to an arbitrary interpretive dance. It doesn't look fun, visually it's a mess that my increasingly older eyes just can't keep up with. But the endpoint for the removal positionals will be to bring that sort of design to standard content in order to provide challenge.

That might not bother me too much in the end, because it would be balanced for the rest of us. But given that there's been a rash of players complaining about needing to stay in MELEE RANGE as their MELEE JOBS, removing positionals will ultimately have solved nothing for people who don't want to be asked by the game to do anything in any specific way.

Given Yoshis frequent opinion that jobs should be simple, and the difficulty should be from mechanics. I can sort of see the point your trying to make.

but I would also make the comment that if positionals are the only thing that keeps an encounter interesting then there's obviously a very big problem with encounter design as a whole.

I personally would like to see the balance changed a bit in terms of the combat : mechanics ratio. By making combat a bigger portion of the equation you can open up a lot of room to add some actual depth and interesting elements to jobs, which in turn would allow them to feel more rewarding to play..

But if hitting a positional for a staggering 2-3 potency per second increase is the most interesting thing about combat then there's obviously some much bigger issues. This is further demonstrated by the fact many of the people who want to keep positionals want to do so for the sole reason that they'd find combat "boring" without them.

They've had systems and ideas that have actually added depth and interest to combat.
The idea of battle regimens from 1.0 had a ton of potential.
The incapacitation system again had a ton of potential as you could actually change fights with it. break a bosses arm and he cant do that cleave... and thus will resort to other tactics...

Then there things like Crowd Control, Interupts, Kiting, Priority targets, etc. Even earlier dungeons had these things. Mobs that should be focussed such as those pesky bees that will final sting for example or mobs that had to be killed in a specific spot. where as now its just mindlessly aoe everything down and move along.

If you go back to 1.23 even the combat system was better and more dynamic. Rotations werent so strict and rigid but often required opportunity.. Even for tanks where there was an element of skill involved in timing that moment where you could duck behind a boss and start your dps combo without moving or turning them and getting everyone else killed..

Where now rotations are static dull and boring. they never really change much.. If it wasn't for the devs blocking queues on macros players would literally macro entire rotations because every boss is the same. Which is why people often refer to muscle memory because all you ever do is the same rotation over and over and over..

But when positionals are literally the most interesting thing about combat. it says alot about the combat...

They really do need to add some fun, interesting and actual rewarding elements to combat. Even if that means making encounters mechanically simpler. If the jobs are more fun and engaging to play I think thats a decent trade off and would allow for a decent skill ceiling.

[ReynTime]

Given Yoshis frequent opinion that jobs should be simple, and the difficulty should be from mechanics. I can sort of see the point your trying to make.
.

Did he really say that? :/ Is there an interview link?

[Mikey_R]

I personally would like to see the balance changed a bit in terms of the combat : mechanics ratio. By making combat a bigger portion of the equation you can open up a lot of room to add some actual depth and interesting elements to jobs, which in turn would allow them to feel more rewarding to play..

But if hitting a positional for a staggering 2-3 potency per second increase is the most interesting thing about combat then there's obviously some much bigger issues. This is further demonstrated by the fact many of the people who want to keep positionals want to do so for the sole reason that they'd find combat "boring" without them.

It's not really a case for one or the other, it is mixing boss mechanics whilst trying to get positionals that make it interesting. Solving that puzzle of uptime, positionals and doing mechanics, al whilst doing your rotation. Doing mechanics is easy, that is basically physical ranged play. Doing mechanics and maximising uptime, that is for the casters, however, doing mechanics, keeping uptime AND hitting positionals, that is where melee fall and should stay.

Sure, design more interesting mechanics for bosses, I don't care, I will solve the puzzle of maintaining uptime and doing positionals whilst doing the required mechanic. This is what people enjoy, however, as I have recently been saying, people who don't like this playstyle are trying to take it away from those of us that do. It might only be a small increase, but I don't care. It feels good knowing you have contributed as much as you can, you have worked out the solution to the puzzle.

There should be something for everyone, however, everything cannot cater to one person.

[IruruCece]

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...nd-Suggestions

This has a perfect explanation of why positionals are stupid and a relic of a by gone time in FFXIV. It's also very well put together and a good read, but the bit about postionals being useless is SPOT ON!

It's not a good opinion just because you agree with it. It's also not a very good opinion in general with regards to positionals from the outset, because if you claim that the game which offers a diagram at the feet of every boss that tells you whether you count as flanking a target or not doesn't accommodate positionals whatsoever, your opinion about the mechanic is immediately suspect.

The game does quite a lot, within reason, to teach players where they should stand in order to efficiently move between positional requirements, and if you're doing it right, you should never have to move very far under normal circumstances. Of course, the game also throws out things specifically to push players outside of that comfort zone. The response to this, then, is that the players should recognize that they will need to find ways to optimize their DPS to handle these mechanics.

What is happening with people like you and that OP is that they don't want to adapt and overcome. They want the game to adapt to their preferences instead, and those preferences are not universally shared or even agreed upon.

Positionals are great in slower paced combat.

I will never stop being amused at seeing people complain about the speed of Monks now. It was all but inevitable that this would be the next thing people would dislike about the job. You got rid of the ramp up, you're going permanently supersonic now, but it's also now too much. I'll be unsurprised to see threads asking to slow the job down and adjust the potencies accordingly.

GL had problems, but I feel that the speed ramp up was an important aspect to the overall job's design. SE could have done far more to fix Monks in general, but changing GL into a trait was basically them throwing red meat to a vocal portion of the playerbase that often starts threads with "I don't really play Monk all that much but here's my 10 point plan to make it more to my preferences." We're seeing that same mindset now directed at positionals, and frankly, given SE's history with Monks overall, removing positionals from the game will not magically solve any problems with the job, or combat design in general.

[Dzian]

I will never stop being amused at seeing people complain about the speed of Monks now. It was all but inevitable that this would be the next thing people would dislike about the job. You got rid of the ramp up, you're going permanently supersonic now, but it's also now too much. I'll be unsurprised to see threads asking to slow the job down and adjust the potencies accordingly.

GL had problems, but I feel that the speed ramp up was an important aspect to the overall job's design. SE could have done far more to fix Monks in general, but changing GL into a trait was basically them throwing red meat to a vocal portion of the playerbase that often starts threads with "I don't really play Monk all that much but here's my 10 point plan to make it more to my preferences." We're seeing that same mindset now directed at positionals, and frankly, given SE's history with Monks overall, removing positionals from the game will not magically solve any problems with the job, or combat design in general.

I think the pace thing he and others have referred to is more generalised than just Monk. there's been a great divide for a long time on the pace of combat. A lot of people think combat is generally to fast paced ADHD button spam fest. and would like to see it slowed down especially on jobs that should be generally slower thematically. A Warrior for example should typically be aclass that hits slow and hard with that great big battle axe, not be able to swing it around like its made of paper..

A lot of people think its too slow and needs speeding up with a 1.5 gcd or something along those lines, because its boring having a full second with no buttons to press

[wereotter]

I think the pace thing he and others have referred to is more generalised than just Monk. there's been a great divide for a long time on the pace of combat. A lot of people think combat is generally to fast paced ADHD button spam fest. and would like to see it slowed down especially on jobs that should be generally slower thematically. A Warrior for example should typically be aclass that hits slow and hard with that great big battle axe, not be able to swing it around like its made of paper..

A lot of people think its too slow and needs speeding up with a 1.5 gcd or something along those lines, because its boring having a full second with no buttons to press

Speaking as a monk... I resemble this comment. 1.5 seconds is SO LONG to wait to press a button!! Gimme that 1 second GCD!

[ssunny2008]

I will never stop being amused at seeing people complain about the speed of Monks now.

Funfact, double true monk before was even faster.

And yeah, the game is really slow in combat. It might be the slowest MMORPG i played over the years. Even MNK is super slow. All the game does is to put the player under pressure with some nonamed off-gcd´s, that´s it. Everyone who thinks "it´s too fast", should play action MMORPG´s or stuff like WoW / SWTOR and l2p there.