Positionals

[Nothv13]

But that isnt really a reason to remove something, especially something like positionals that is something you slowly improve throughout repeating an encounter, yeah you might not manage to hit all of them but the game does not ask your nor does it require you to always get your positionals 100% of the time

Maybe look at the cause of that feeling, why do you feel you MUST minmax everything and if that doesnt happen you feel bad when nobody but you have placed this unrealistic expectation on yourself.

So they are ultimately pointless, add nothing but more movement that can be completely ruined by numerous things outside of your control.

[IruruCece]

So they are ultimately pointless, add nothing but more movement that can be completely ruined by numerous things outside of your control.

Better players can and do land more positionals more often than people who don't even play the job, or people who aren't as skilled at the job or a given fight. Landing positionals more consistently results in higher DPS, results in better overall performance for the raid because the boss/mob will die faster. As it is with anything about this game, players who engage with the mechanics can and often do outperform those who refuse to engage with said mechanics outside of forums posts where they declare that those things are worthless and that they shouldn't be punished for not trying to play better.

A Black Mage will be forced to move because of mechanics that they have no control over, potentially messing up their burst phase or even costing them enochian. Should they now be allowed to cast everything on the move?

A Bard might miss refreshing DOTs because they died to mechanics outside of their control. Should dots never expire now?

A Dancer's Technical Step might not hit the boss because they were forced out of range. Should Technical Step now have unlimited range in boss arenas?

Of course not. That would be ridiculous. The answer isn't to make things easier for players who make mistakes, either because they were forced or they play poorly. The player should get better at playing the game, or learn to mitigate the things outside of their control. That's what makes the different between the average monk and a good one. They can't land every positional, but they can land more of them even under duress than a less experienced or less skilled player. It's called practice.

[Nothv13]

Better players can and do land more positionals more often than people who don't even play the job, or people who aren't as skilled at the job or a given fight. Landing positionals more consistently results in higher DPS, results in better overall performance for the raid because the boss/mob will die faster. As it is with anything about this game, players who engage with the mechanics can and often do outperform those who refuse to engage with said mechanics outside of forums posts where they declare that those things are worthless and that they shouldn't be punished for not trying to play better.

A Black Mage will be forced to move because of mechanics that they have no control over, potentially messing up their burst phase or even costing them enochian. Should they now be allowed to cast everything on the move?

A Bard might miss refreshing DOTs because they died to mechanics outside of their control. Should dots never expire now?

A Dancer's Technical Step might not hit the boss because they were forced out of range. Should Technical Step now have unlimited range in boss arenas?

Of course not. That would be ridiculous. The answer isn't to make things easier for players who make mistakes, either because they were forced or they play poorly. The player should get better at playing the game, or learn to mitigate the things outside of their control. That's what makes the different between the average monk and a good one. They can't land every positional, but they can land more of them even under duress than a less experienced or less skilled player. It's called practice.

They've been constantly lowering the cooldown and even added charges to true north. They even gave monk, essentially a second true north. Its almost to the point that true north just serves as an additional button for something so inconsequential. They've also lowered the potency differences.

All classes have something that throws them off, however, MDPS have all those you listed, along with positionals, short range (their ranged abilities break combo), and in general more strict rotations. Also bad things other players do will typically effect the MDPS more. Tank doesn't move the boss out of the aoe (tanks its out of it though)? so long positionals, ranged doesn't stay in reasonable range and the boss leaps to them? Whelp there's GCDS lost and combo potentially lost. Without the positionals they'd still have nearly all those things to worry about, and movement required (in most fights) would still effect them more than ranged.

[ssunny2008]

They've been constantly lowering the cooldown and even added charges to true north. They even gave monk, essentially a second true north. Its almost to the point that true north just serves as an additional button for something so inconsequential. They've also lowered the potency differences.

All classes have something that throws them off, however, MDPS have all those you listed, along with positionals, short range (their ranged abilities break combo), and in general more strict rotations. Also bad things other players do will typically effect the MDPS more. Tank doesn't move the boss out of the aoe (tanks its out of it though)? so long positionals, ranged doesn't stay in reasonable range and the boss leaps to them? Whelp there's GCDS lost and combo potentially lost. Without the positionals they'd still have nearly all those things to worry about, and movement required (in most fights) would still effect them more than ranged.

The game is way too forgivable in a lot of ways and this is pretty much the core reason "why noone improves anymore".

- Shared TB? Invul.
- Boss is not in the middle? Np, he´ll port at the next mechanic.
- You wiped in 99% of the content of the game? Here "click easy mode" or you´ll get a straight up buff each restart anyway.
- Positional potencies? Who cares about them on DRG / NIN. You could even stuck behind the boss as MNK and do about 10% less damage. Still enough to beat the current E9-E11s, maybe even E12s if the other DPS know their job.
- You´re double lefthanded and blind on one eye? Here is a DNC for you.
- A handful of bosses don´t even have any positional requirements.

The list goes on. And in all cases, Melee and Caster still have a comfortzone in DPS. Phys. ranged don´t have them thx to the "i don´t care" factor. The game got dumb´d down enough and more than enough players proved that positionals are no issues as much as casting times are. You just practice a boss fight and get used to it. TN and RoE are for such badass mechanics where you clearly can´t play positionals. So what´s the point?

Imagine the game will get dumb´d down more and more. BLM will get less casting times, positionals will be removed, healer can instarezz permanently, whatever. Would be funny to see how it´s going on when the so called "elitists" have nothing even near challenging left and leave the game. No more guides, no more balance discord or other stuff "lazy players" can rely on. Could be really funny to see how things going nuts.

It´s up to the player to improve, not to the game to become easier unless it´s absolutely unplayable, which is definately not the case here.

[Nothv13]

The game is way too forgivable in a lot of ways and this is pretty much the core reason "why noone improves anymore".

- Shared TB? Invul.
- Boss is not in the middle? Np, he´ll port at the next mechanic.
- You wiped in 99% of the content of the game? Here "click easy mode" or you´ll get a straight up buff each restart anyway.
- Positional potencies? Who cares about them on DRG / NIN. You could even stuck behind the boss as MNK and do about 10% less damage. Still enough to beat the current E9-E11s, maybe even E12s if the other DPS know their job.
- You´re double lefthanded and blind on one eye? Here is a DNC for you.
- A handful of bosses don´t even have any positional requirements.

The list goes on. And in all cases, Melee and Caster still have a comfortzone in DPS. Phys. ranged don´t have them thx to the "i don´t care" factor. The game got dumb´d down enough and more than enough players proved that positionals are no issues as much as casting times are. You just practice a boss fight and get used to it. TN and RoE are for such badass mechanics where you clearly can´t play positionals. So what´s the point?

Imagine the game will get dumb´d down more and more. BLM will get less casting times, positionals will be removed, healer can instarezz permanently, whatever. Would be funny to see how it´s going on when the so called "elitists" have nothing even near challenging left and leave the game. No more guides, no more balance discord or other stuff "lazy players" can rely on. Could be really funny to see how things going nuts.

It´s up to the player to improve, not to the game to become easier unless it´s absolutely unplayable, which is definately not the case here.

Why have a mechanic confined to one role that is so inconsequential? Having something simply for the sake of complexity is piss poor game design. If you want complexity, it needs to be meaningful, otherwise it is just empty annoyance. The positionals used to be quite meaningful, but apparently they have not tested well through the years since they've been removing the meaning from them constantly.

[ssunny2008]

Why have a mechanic confined to one role that is so inconsequential? Having something simply for the sake of complexity is piss poor game design. If you want complexity, it needs to be meaningful, otherwise it is just empty annoyance. The positionals used to be quite meaningful, but apparently they have not tested well through the years since they've been removing the meaning from them constantly.

If you want more meaning on them, then go for that 150 potency loss if you´re not playing them? I would welcome that. They could even go back to ressource management and other stuff combined with them.

As i said, the most stuff happened thx to the dumb downs and the gap between a good and a "bad" player is close, but it still exists. Positionals on that side are part of this gap especially on MNK. If they get ride of them, i want SE to get ride of casting times, because i clearly hate them. Nothing is more boring than waiting 2-2,5s until you can move again.

In kind of complexity it´s atleast still one of the last things which fresh up the gameplay in some way. I hate to say it, but this game is already a noob / casual fest. This whole topic exist because someone didn´t want to improve or didn´t used the given tools. As i said before, 98% of the game are no-brainers. You don´t even have to read half of your skills, because they´ll highlight in the needed combo.
All that won´t change, Yoshi follows his clear vision of "dumb down everything". PvP and healers will be the next step. But hell, don´t take the last part of complexity away from us, no matter how bad it seems to be implemented. You won´t be a better player when you choose the easy mode. It just makes the game uninteresting and boring.

In kind of NIN / DRG i´ve given some ideas before to make them somewhat more interesting and "background-depended", because their positionals are indeed useless / meaningless. But in case of MNK... the whole class cries POSITIONALS! and that´s fine.

[Nothv13]

If you want more meaning on them, then go for that 150 potency loss if you´re not playing them? I would welcome that. They could even go back to ressource management and other stuff combined with them.

As i said, the most stuff happened thx to the dumb downs and the gap between a good and a "bad" player is close, but it still exists. Positionals on that side are part of this gap especially on MNK. If they get ride of them, i want SE to get ride of casting times, because i clearly hate them. Nothing is more boring than waiting 2-2,5s until you can move again.

In kind of complexity it´s atleast still one of the last things which fresh up the gameplay in some way. I hate to say it, but this game is already a noob / casual fest. This whole topic exist because someone didn´t want to improve or didn´t used the given tools. As i said before, 98% of the game are no-brainers. You don´t even have to read half of your skills, because they´ll highlight in the needed combo.
All that won´t change, Yoshi follows his clear vision of "dumb down everything". PvP and healers will be the next step. But hell, don´t take the last part of complexity away from us, no matter how bad it seems to be implemented. You won´t be a better player when you choose the easy mode. It just makes the game uninteresting and boring.

In kind of NIN / DRG i´ve given some ideas before to make them somewhat more interesting and "background-depended", because their positionals are indeed useless / meaningless. But in case of MNK... the whole class cries POSITIONALS! and that´s fine.

Healers and PvP have already been hit, or have you not seen the 1 button dps and simplified healing or the combos merged to one button.

DRG and NIN positionals are worthless and don't really add anything to the class. Monk was built on positionals but they still keep toning them down and even give them extra true north like ability. If they are going to keep going the route of de-emphasizing positionals even on the class designed for them, they should just get rid of them. There are much better ways of adding complexity to classes than just slapping a position requirement and a small potency buff on a few skills. Even something as small as a need to interrupt a boss with a skill (often enough the tank can't always do it) can do it or adding encounter design that requires more than just avoid aoe area, press button do damage for dps. Hell for the DRG, they could add complexity by making the jumps a bit of invicibility so that DRG could actually play the high risk high reward style being able to jump to avoid the most common type of AoEs, save your spineshatter and dragonfire to stay in dps range or use them on cooldown to burst.

[IruruCece]

They've been constantly lowering the cooldown and even added charges to true north. They even gave monk, essentially a second true north. Its almost to the point that true north just serves as an additional button for something so inconsequential. They've also lowered the potency differences.

It's almost as though they've been repeatedly catering to people who expect to be catered to rather than accepting they need to get better and practice more, which still hasn't made Monk more popular as a DPS job. If nothing else, SE should make successful positionals hit harder again, because it's clear that catering to people who start threads admitting they don't even play the job but think its hard to play hasn't actually fixed a single problem with the job or attracted more high-end raiders to it.

The currently existing True North is a downgrade from what it was prior to this patch, and it previously allowed Monks to ignore positionals for a solid minute when well timed with Earth's Reply. It's almost as if SE doesn't want people to not engage with these mechanics, but rather they want True North specifically to be used in short bursts when a boss makes landing some positionals more difficult. It's meant to be used in a pinch, not something that allows you to ignore boss mechanics for almost an entire burst phase all the time.

So... what's your solution here, boss? Double melee range? Triple it? People will still complain about encounters making it hard to do the things expected of them anyway, ignoring that this is the entire point of those mechanics in the first. Like you helpfully point out, every job has a "comfort zone" in a boss fight, but these typically come with PRACTICE and a better understanding of the fight's mechanics. I can't tell you how many times I've entered raids with BLM friends who complain, ad infinitum, about how unfriendly an encounter is to their DPS, how hard it is to find time and space to cast in. There have been plenty of encounters where I've asked myself how am I going to consistently "get in there" and do the damage I need to be doing.

The solution in both cases has been to practice, get better, and accept that sometimes there's too much out of your control to safely DPS properly in. But a living DPS that is still doing damage where and when they can is still more valuable than a dead one. You cannot and will not be able to hit every single positional in a raid. A caster will not always get every cast in on their burst phase. A DOT might fall off. A self-buff might fall off. Mechanics that force these challenges on the player are intended, and players are expected to work around them by design.

If you don't like positionals, Monk isn't for you. Not every job is for everyone. It is kinda sad that positionals are pretty much all Monk has going for it in terms of both identity and as a marker of player skill, though. SE should do something about that.

[Nothv13]

If you don't like positionals, Monk isn't for you. Not every job is for everyone. It is kinda sad that positionals are pretty much all Monk has going for it in terms of both identity and as a marker of player skill, though. SE should do something about that.

Did yo know BLM have more tools to deal with their dps downtime issues than MDPS do along with a much simpler rotation? Did you know all MDPS have positionals? Hell, DRG has an ability that requires you to hit 2 positionals to even activate it. I'd expect that on the Monk, nope shoved onto DRG for some stupid reason instead of tying it to their current mechanical focus.

[IruruCece]

Did yo know BLM have more tools to deal with their dps downtime issues than MDPS do along with a much simpler rotation? Did you know all MDPS have positionals? Hell, DRG has an ability that requires you to hit 2 positionals to even activate it. I'd expect that on the Monk, nope shoved onto DRG for some stupid reason instead of tying it to their current mechanical focus.

You seem to not understand that BLMs have their own challenges forced onto them by mechanics outside of their control. Every job does. That's the point.

You do make one valid point: Monks SHOULD have more interactions between their buttons to make the positionals more rewarding. If there is a single thing from DRG I'd like to see on Monk, it'd be more of that. Successful positionals should result in more powerful variants of moves, it'd be easier visual (and numerical) feedback on pretty much every level. It might tick off people who think they are being harshly punished by SE for failing one or several, but I don't really care too much about what they think anymore.