Positionals

[Mavrias]

From my point of view positionals are pure annoyance. Ranged jobs can move freely, and often output higher damage per second, while melees are tied to very tight spot. Most of the time you are forced to ignore them, because newer fights are more "action combat" focused, so you can't just stand wherever you want.
For me they can be removed without changing rotation of any melee job. Only some potency changes would be required.

If a ranged physical job is out dpsing you as a melee, there's more wrong with what you're doing than just positionals.

[Canadane]

I'm for MORE positionals.
Melee DPS (tanks included) have the ability to move around their target within melee range generally at will without much consequence.
Back when they all had positionals and ranged had sweet spots, it was a lot more strategic at times.

But alas, they keep dumbing the game down for multiplicities sake. The game will be a one button clicker by the end :<

[CKNovel]

If a ranged physical job is out dpsing you as a melee, there's more wrong with what you're doing than just positionals.

I don't remember it quite well, but I believe someone tried to measure their DPS striking a dummy only on the frontside as a DRG.
The DPS difference was about 500 if I remember well, but that was during the beginning of the expansion.

[ItMe]

I'm for MORE positionals [...] (tanks included)

You wouldn't be worried about tanks spinning the boss in order to hit those positionals?

[Zaddi]

As someone who avoids melee jobs at all costs (I'm just leveling them to get the amaro mount) I don't want positionals to go away. I remember leveling DRG, it was the most boring thing I've ever done. When I got a skill with a positional (at lv...50? 45? The pink/purple skill that sounds like a chicken. I don't know how to play dragoon...) it actually got a bit more fun. It was something to pay attention to. Don't remove positionals

[ssunny2008]

snip

I read your stuff, but it´s more elitism talk than anything else.

What do you expect from a "casual" game where classes getting dumb´d down? To cater the top 10%?
And what is with the other 89% on ff.logs? Why do they exist, if everything is so easy and every player is so smart and do tons of 90%+ logruns each week? Not all of them are gear-related.

You can talk from yourself, maybe your friends, but this game has millions of players and there are more bad / casual players than those who can read their skills and adjust to boss mechanics. Even surviving as phys. range is way easier than as a melee or caster. I don´t know what´s up with your experience, but i still meet samurais with better gear and they have way less damage on E11s than i have on my monk. And i know poeple from my old guild which were not even able to perform well in a dungeon. I mean... DUNGEONS... half afk content with 2 times aoe spam between the bosses.

And about the classes... above average players or dps hunter will mostly play meta. It´s the same in every game. For example i have rarely seen blackmage on E5-8s in the pf, now they´re everywhere. The good thing about this game is, that the subclasses are well balanced in their own category. Phys. range on their side are the most forgivable classes at any time and they can be played in EVERY content / tier easily as long as this game keeps running.

Just turn off ACT and you wouldn´t even mention a difference. Every class is able to beat the endgame and some of them (phys. range) have an easier life to do that. It´s a fact.


EDIT: Check out the top players in average. The gap is like 2000 dps. Sounds a lot yes, but the most players are NOT able to reach such statistics with a melee or caster, especially not without a decent party. But a lot will be able to come near to this dps with phys. range classes even in random parties. (And this 2000dps more are not needed to beat the bosses anyway.)

[Wyakin]

I read your stuff, but it´s more elitism talk than anything else.

What do you expect from a "casual" game where classes getting dumb´d down? To cater the top 10%?
And what is with the other 89% on ff.logs? Why do they exist, if everything is so easy and every player is so smart and do tons of 90%+ logruns each week? Not all of them are gear-related.

You can talk from yourself, maybe your friends, but this game has millions of players and there are more bad / casual players than those who can read their skills and adjust to boss mechanics. Even surviving as phys. range is way easier than as a melee or caster. I don´t know what´s up with your experience, but i still meet samurais with better gear and they have way less damage on E11s than i have on my monk. And i know poeple from my old guild which were not even able to perform well in a dungeon. I mean... DUNGEONS... half afk content with 2 times aoe spam between the bosses.

And about the classes... above average players or dps hunter will mostly play meta. It´s the same in every game. For example i have rarely seen blackmage on E5-8s in the pf, now they´re everywhere. The good thing about this game is, that the subclasses are well balanced in their own category. Phys. range on their side are the most forgivable classes at any time and they can be played in EVERY content / tier easily as long as this game keeps running.

Just turn off ACT and you wouldn´t even mention a difference. Every class is able to beat the endgame and some of them (phys. range) have an easier life to do that. It´s a fact.


EDIT: Check out the top players in average. The gap is like 2000 dps. Sounds a lot yes, but the most players are NOT able to reach such statistics with a melee or caster, especially not without a decent party. But a lot will be able to come near to this dps with phys. range classes even in random parties. (And this 2000dps more are not needed to beat the bosses anyway.)

Gonna outright say... you’re wrong. The gap between ranged and the rest is too large and I honestly cannot be bothered to explain why because if you can’t see the issues then I can’t be bothered to discuss it. It’s been discussed to death on multiple threads and there’s a tiny % of people who think ranged are ok due to being “easy to play” or “have no uptime/cast bars/positionals” well, please do some research

[CKNovel]

I read your stuff, but it´s more elitism talk than anything else.

I don't deny that there is more casual players but I feel that you are mixing things there. The other 89% are not only casuals. Everyone makes mistakes, gets a damage down or dies, nobody is perfect.

For Casuals, DPS don't matter much. As week passes, they'll get gear that'll grant them more DPS and HP, making the savages easier and accessible.
If we still follow your logic, then a high skilled player that plays a ranged because they have an affitiny towards the job should be gutted because the player who dies, suffer from Damage down, wants to play Ice Mage or don't want to commit to learn the basics feels that it's easier to play ranged? You don't ask a runner to slowdown in a race because he has longer legs.

And don't worry about ACT, I don't care much about my own DPS, I care about how well I do my job and what I can bring to the group.
Without such tools, you can still feel the difference. I still remember about a friend who switched from DNC to DRG as we were on E3S enrage and it went in a go. I can still remember about the double ranged comp hitting enrage.
Again, ranged are not asking for top DPS, just to be as usefull to the group as RDM/SMN for example.

Man, I don't aim to sound like an elitist. I just want to be usefull and play the jobs I love without downsides. I don't want to get in a PF, hit the enrage and tell myself "If I was a Samurai main, we would've passed this fight".
What's my purpose today? To bring a 1% stats to everyone else.

Anyway, that's not the topic there.

[Caitsithhh]

I don't deny that there is more casual players but I feel that you are mixing things there. The other 89% are not only casuals. Everyone makes mistakes, gets a damage down or dies, nobody is perfect.

For Casuals, DPS don't matter much. As week passes, they'll get gear that'll grant them more DPS and HP, making the savages easier and accessible.
If we still follow your logic, then a high skilled player that plays a ranged because they have an affitiny towards the job should be gutted because the player who dies, suffer from Damage down, wants to play Ice Mage or don't want to commit to learn the basics feels that it's easier to play ranged? You don't ask a runner to slowdown in a race because he has longer legs.

And don't worry about ACT, I don't care much about my own DPS, I care about how well I do my job and what I can bring to the group.
Without such tools, you can still feel the difference. I still remember about a friend who switched from DNC to DRG as we were on E3S enrage and it went in a go. I can still remember about the double ranged comp hitting enrage.
Again, ranged are not asking for top DPS, just to be as usefull to the group as RDM/SMN for example.

Man, I don't aim to sound like an elitist. I just want to be usefull and play the jobs I love without downsides. I don't want to get in a PF, hit the enrage and tell myself "If I was a Samurai main, we would've passed this fight".
What's my purpose today? To bring a 1% stats to everyone else.

Anyway, that's not the topic there.

I mean just switching to a sam doesn’t mean you’ll do better lol. Playing what you know at top level and just being average is two different things completely. Really the fight design IN savage this expac and ultimate are two different animals. Phys ranged isn’t cut from anything. They’ve just been given the role that’s has no downside to moving or doing mechs. Saying that should do around the same ballpark as something that takes much more planning is kind of pepega. Also arguing top end numbers against one another is just as pepega. I ran double ranged phys in month one TEA and we cleared 20+ times with it.

[CKNovel]

I mean just switching to a sam doesn’t mean you’ll do better lol. Playing what you know at top level and just being average is two different things completely. Really the fight design IN savage this expac and ultimate are two different animals. Phys ranged isn’t cut from anything. They’ve just been given the role that’s has no downside to moving or doing mechs. Saying that should do around the same ballpark as something that takes much more planning is kind of pepega. Also arguing top end numbers against one another is just as pepega. I ran double ranged phys in month one TEA and we cleared 20+ times with it.

You probably missed some episodes, here and there. Especially the part that outperforming a ranged on equal gear is far from difficult. Doing the minimal will be enough.
Or that DPS isn't the only problem in ranged's current state.

As you said, design in ultimate and savages are completely different, Ultimate DPS check isn't really hard, it's way heavier mechanic wise. Some claims that it's a joke.
And since you want to pick TEA as an example, during many mechanics, the boss is not targetable at all. Being a ranged, melee or caster has little impact in there. And during the first two phase, the least you move the better.

Comparing early savage DPS check and Ultimate DPS check, that's pepega.

EDIT: Anyway, mind if we can go back to the initial discussion about positionnals?
I'll gladly answer, but there's plenty of ranged subject to debate about it.