Positionals

[CKNovel]

[...]

Yep, you just didn't read what I answer.
I'm not going to pick apart your answer and point out every wrong statement.

So I'll resume;

-There is no hard job, I assume you never raided during HW. Back then jobs were much, MUCH harder to play. I invite you to try ranged, you'll quickly feel that something is missing, most of the time the gameplay doesn't differ from a caster.
When I picked up SAM, I could outdps without effort my MCH.
-90 percentile is realistic. You can do it on accident during your weeklies as long as you know how to press your buttons. You only need minimal knowledge, how to play your job, how to avoid death/damage down and a correct gear.
-We can't balance ranged jobs because someone don't feel like they should put as much work in their melee/caster jobs.
You're basically telling that people who put more work and money in their education for a comfortable work should be paid as much as someone who works at McDonald's because it's "harder".
-Remind yourself that despite that mobility, ranged still have the same amount of mechanics to deal with. There is no "magic protection" that allows them to avoid damage from certain mechanics and this tier is really, really melee friendly.
Only a terrible range would remain far away, ironically being far away can screw everyone in E11S.
-Remind yourself that despite that mobility, ranged are still restricted to healings and mitigation range. SCH bubble, WHM Cure III, AST star... It doesn't have unlimited range.
-It's not only for skilled people, but mobility truly means nothing in this tier. Take it on BLM/SMN/RDM perspective. There's no movement higher than 3 seconds and if there is, bosses are not targetable. During these 3 seconds you have many tools to move and instancast. A BLM I know, a good friend of mine, name the SMN "The 4th ranged".
-Why would you play BRD when there's a stronger variant named MCH? Why would you play RDM when there's a stronger variant named SMN? Why would you play Ninja when there's a easier/stronger variant named SAM? See, that logic simply doesn't work. Players choose the jobs that vibes the most with them, not because of range or because that is supposedly easier to play.

Read that and please remember it:
Ranged are not asking to be top DPS. They're asking for a smaller gap and if that """mobility""" tax needs to exist, then give ranged something that actually matters to the group. Not just the power to run in circles.
Ranged are subDps, because they don't have many tools and depth, they feel easier to play.
Before, ranged were supposed to manage MP/TP resource, that was removed.
Before, they had better mitigation and rDPS, that was removed.
MCH is reduced to a silence and tactician.

Mobility feels like a breeze of fresh air for the beginners.
But rather than a floor, it's a ceiling that prevent ranged from doing more, because of that tax that exist only to satisfy the beginners.

Mobility is not as good as you think.
It has been proved with E8S, considered the savage that requireds the most movement and ranged did not shined at all during progress.
Progress, when players are still learning to optimize and playing safe.

[ssunny2008]

snip

I read your stuff, but it´s more elitism talk than anything else.

What do you expect from a "casual" game where classes getting dumb´d down? To cater the top 10%?
And what is with the other 89% on ff.logs? Why do they exist, if everything is so easy and every player is so smart and do tons of 90%+ logruns each week? Not all of them are gear-related.

You can talk from yourself, maybe your friends, but this game has millions of players and there are more bad / casual players than those who can read their skills and adjust to boss mechanics. Even surviving as phys. range is way easier than as a melee or caster. I don´t know what´s up with your experience, but i still meet samurais with better gear and they have way less damage on E11s than i have on my monk. And i know poeple from my old guild which were not even able to perform well in a dungeon. I mean... DUNGEONS... half afk content with 2 times aoe spam between the bosses.

And about the classes... above average players or dps hunter will mostly play meta. It´s the same in every game. For example i have rarely seen blackmage on E5-8s in the pf, now they´re everywhere. The good thing about this game is, that the subclasses are well balanced in their own category. Phys. range on their side are the most forgivable classes at any time and they can be played in EVERY content / tier easily as long as this game keeps running.

Just turn off ACT and you wouldn´t even mention a difference. Every class is able to beat the endgame and some of them (phys. range) have an easier life to do that. It´s a fact.


EDIT: Check out the top players in average. The gap is like 2000 dps. Sounds a lot yes, but the most players are NOT able to reach such statistics with a melee or caster, especially not without a decent party. But a lot will be able to come near to this dps with phys. range classes even in random parties. (And this 2000dps more are not needed to beat the bosses anyway.)

[CKNovel]

I read your stuff, but it´s more elitism talk than anything else.

I don't deny that there is more casual players but I feel that you are mixing things there. The other 89% are not only casuals. Everyone makes mistakes, gets a damage down or dies, nobody is perfect.

For Casuals, DPS don't matter much. As week passes, they'll get gear that'll grant them more DPS and HP, making the savages easier and accessible.
If we still follow your logic, then a high skilled player that plays a ranged because they have an affitiny towards the job should be gutted because the player who dies, suffer from Damage down, wants to play Ice Mage or don't want to commit to learn the basics feels that it's easier to play ranged? You don't ask a runner to slowdown in a race because he has longer legs.

And don't worry about ACT, I don't care much about my own DPS, I care about how well I do my job and what I can bring to the group.
Without such tools, you can still feel the difference. I still remember about a friend who switched from DNC to DRG as we were on E3S enrage and it went in a go. I can still remember about the double ranged comp hitting enrage.
Again, ranged are not asking for top DPS, just to be as usefull to the group as RDM/SMN for example.

Man, I don't aim to sound like an elitist. I just want to be usefull and play the jobs I love without downsides. I don't want to get in a PF, hit the enrage and tell myself "If I was a Samurai main, we would've passed this fight".
What's my purpose today? To bring a 1% stats to everyone else.

Anyway, that's not the topic there.

[IruruCece]

Again, ranged are not asking for top DPS, just to be as usefull to the group as RDM/SMN for example.

Good players in any job are more valuable than meta jobs are in a vacuum. As long as all the roles are filled, anyone can clear anything provided that they play well. You are probably more useful playing a DNC or BRD in a raid than I would be bringing MNK or SAM because in all likelihood, you're the better player. You play enough to see that higher end content and push that content line. I do not.

If ranged DPS want to hit as close to as hard as melee DPS currently do, then I'd want them to have positionals to worry about, and if not that, I want them to all experience the same challenges in movement and dpsing that BLM does by SEVERELY curtailing their current mobility. Force dancers and Bards to stand still while DPSing, either through animation locks or giving them more charge bars for all of their abilities across the board, either or.

Without something along these lines, you would have a pair of jobs that GREATLY minimize the risks of death thanks to their mobility (especially DNC), while still offering more than enough output to be deemed "useful" by someone who is more worried about their numbers than others are. What then would be the point of taking a melee job into ANY new content, beyond simple preference? And honestly, preference only goes so far. Despite constant complaints about how hard MNK is to play (positionals, greased lightning, idontlikething), the job saw a surprising burst of activity early into ShB when it briefly challenged BLM for top slot. Not many stuck around, I guess.

Melee DPS must place themselves in close proximity to the enemy, regularly unleashing combos efficiently to maintain unique class mechanics, all of which face potential disruption whenever the boss does anything that denies them the ability to attack, or forces them to move away. In addition to this, they have positionals (MNK more than any other) that require moving in a specific way to get the most out of certain attacks OR use shared DPS abilities to negate those positional requirements temporarily. The mixture of limited range, limited mobility, and positionals, combined with fight mechanics, effectively places a lot more stress on the player that is trying to maximize their performance. The reward for doing so is excellent output. Failure either means reduced output, or zero output (death).

You can disagree with this as much as you want. The bottom line, however, is that Ranged DPS can still do the job in any piece of content in the game right now with less mechanical risk to the player compared to Melee DPS. If players chose to play something more demanding, the reward should be greater than for jobs with less of a demand on the player IF they play well. To demand more for less is just being greedy.

[ItMe]

If ranged DPS want to hit as close to as hard as melee DPS currently do, then I'd want them to have positionals to worry about, and if not that, I want them to all experience the same challenges in movement and dpsing that BLM does by SEVERELY curtailing their current mobility. Force dancers and Bards to stand still while DPSing, either through animation locks or giving them more charge bars for all of their abilities across the board, either or.

Haha I remember them giving BRD castbars...
I'm glad they moved away from that. I'd much rather ranged take the hit to DPS than inhibit their play.

[Rymi64]

If ranged DPS want to hit as close to as hard as melee DPS currently do, then I'd want them to have positionals to worry about, and if not that, I want them to all experience the same challenges in movement and dpsing that BLM does by SEVERELY curtailing their current mobility. Force dancers and Bards to stand still while DPSing, either through animation locks or giving them more charge bars for all of their abilities across the board, either or.

They could always give them cast times again. NGL i kinda miss it but then thats what casters are for . though i would not mind them making a caster that uses like a rifle or something just to give the casters a little different feeling weapon to them. Could even make it so it can auto at a range but their casted skills have lower potency for that reason or even make it a skill where they can auto for a certain amount of time.

[CKNovel]

If ranged DPS want to hit as close to as hard as melee DPS currently do, then I'd want them to have positionals to worry about, and if not that, I want them to all experience the same challenges in movement and dpsing that BLM does by SEVERELY curtailing their current mobility. Force dancers and Bards to stand still while DPSing, either through animation locks or giving them more charge bars for all of their abilities across the board, either or.

Positionnals and casting goes hand in hand, so I'll give in.

That's quite the headhache.
The ranged community is split about the casting debate.

On one hand, you have the BRD job, not designed for casts.
On the other hand, you have MCH that was designed with casts (Ammos, RapidFire...).
Then DNC was strapped onto the ranged role.

I think we're way past the point where adding casts for the whole role can be considered. Adding cast to one or two jobs could be considered but I feel like it would be a mess.
You could have casts on MCH but nothing on BRD.

IMO, the best option there should be to give a variable amount of casts to the jobs.
MCH would have more casts, DNC the least and BRD in-between. I kind of miss casting too, since SB, Machinist feels like "floating around".

Or to add a new type of cast, that does extra damage if you complete the cast. Some sort of "aiming".
Interrupting the cast shots a GCD at 100 potency.
Completing the cast shots a GCD at 110 potency.
For example.

[ssunny2008]

IMO, the best option there should be to give a variable amount of casts to the jobs.
MCH would have more casts, DNC the least and BRD in-between. I kind of miss casting too, since SB, Machinist feels like "floating around".

There is a reason why there are no casts anymore and i personally think it´s good that way. It just doesn´t fit phys. range classes. Maybe 1 cast like Midare for the MCH, but not more.
Instead of going the "easy" way, SE should give those classes a soul if you really want them to compete with others in dps.

- Dancer for example could have limited range and different dances you´ve to remember and play by yourself like ninjutsu. Not just 123 or the same dance with different highlighted buttons. Such dance-moves could have different buffs like "added dot effect, more damage, max. range increase from 8 to 15m", whatever.... such stuff with an internal cooldown, so the player have to adjust with them to the mechanics, skill-problem solved. Of course it´s not that big deal if you get used to it, but it´s something you´ve to remember, you´ve to adjust with the range dance and it fits the class.

- MCH could work with positionals. Not himself, but the robot. Let the robot attack from behind for 5 hits will load his attacks. If it´s done, it´ll grant a 15s damage buff for him, if he attacks the boss from the side. (or other way round). Ofcourse the player needs to have a look at the buff and have to adjust the robot with "from the side, from behind" skills. The robot will stay for a minute and has 45s cooldown or something.

- Sounds pretty dumb, but BRD could actually collect instruments spawning in a 5m radius around him for 10s. If you´ve collected 3 in a special order, you can unleash an soundwave with X damage and one of your menuet/ballad, whatever will be activated. Not just "click the button and enjoy" as it is right now.

Just brainstorming, but anything is better than just cast times. Being "free" fits the jobs well, they just need a soul / something to take care about. But hey, it´s FF14... all cool or variable stuff is getting dumb´d down e.g. astro cards or has a highlighted rotation.

Or to add a new type of cast, that does extra damage if you complete the cast. Some sort of "aiming".

Ppl would just spam it if it´s too powerful or don´t use it when it´s not. And having some sort of PLD rotation or "just another button" is määäh...


For real, SE just needs to stop to make everything too simple. Give us TP, armor/magic penetration and other stuff back, so they can do much more with any class.