Positionals

[Caitsithhh]

I don't deny that there is more casual players but I feel that you are mixing things there. The other 89% are not only casuals. Everyone makes mistakes, gets a damage down or dies, nobody is perfect.

For Casuals, DPS don't matter much. As week passes, they'll get gear that'll grant them more DPS and HP, making the savages easier and accessible.
If we still follow your logic, then a high skilled player that plays a ranged because they have an affitiny towards the job should be gutted because the player who dies, suffer from Damage down, wants to play Ice Mage or don't want to commit to learn the basics feels that it's easier to play ranged? You don't ask a runner to slowdown in a race because he has longer legs.

And don't worry about ACT, I don't care much about my own DPS, I care about how well I do my job and what I can bring to the group.
Without such tools, you can still feel the difference. I still remember about a friend who switched from DNC to DRG as we were on E3S enrage and it went in a go. I can still remember about the double ranged comp hitting enrage.
Again, ranged are not asking for top DPS, just to be as usefull to the group as RDM/SMN for example.

Man, I don't aim to sound like an elitist. I just want to be usefull and play the jobs I love without downsides. I don't want to get in a PF, hit the enrage and tell myself "If I was a Samurai main, we would've passed this fight".
What's my purpose today? To bring a 1% stats to everyone else.

Anyway, that's not the topic there.

I mean just switching to a sam doesn’t mean you’ll do better lol. Playing what you know at top level and just being average is two different things completely. Really the fight design IN savage this expac and ultimate are two different animals. Phys ranged isn’t cut from anything. They’ve just been given the role that’s has no downside to moving or doing mechs. Saying that should do around the same ballpark as something that takes much more planning is kind of pepega. Also arguing top end numbers against one another is just as pepega. I ran double ranged phys in month one TEA and we cleared 20+ times with it.

[CKNovel]

I mean just switching to a sam doesn’t mean you’ll do better lol. Playing what you know at top level and just being average is two different things completely. Really the fight design IN savage this expac and ultimate are two different animals. Phys ranged isn’t cut from anything. They’ve just been given the role that’s has no downside to moving or doing mechs. Saying that should do around the same ballpark as something that takes much more planning is kind of pepega. Also arguing top end numbers against one another is just as pepega. I ran double ranged phys in month one TEA and we cleared 20+ times with it.

You probably missed some episodes, here and there. Especially the part that outperforming a ranged on equal gear is far from difficult. Doing the minimal will be enough.
Or that DPS isn't the only problem in ranged's current state.

As you said, design in ultimate and savages are completely different, Ultimate DPS check isn't really hard, it's way heavier mechanic wise. Some claims that it's a joke.
And since you want to pick TEA as an example, during many mechanics, the boss is not targetable at all. Being a ranged, melee or caster has little impact in there. And during the first two phase, the least you move the better.

Comparing early savage DPS check and Ultimate DPS check, that's pepega.

EDIT: Anyway, mind if we can go back to the initial discussion about positionnals?
I'll gladly answer, but there's plenty of ranged subject to debate about it.

[Raikai]

I don't mind positionals as a mechanic, I really think it adds something more engaging, however, It's really frustrating when tanks keep rotating the boss way too much - sometimes, even just a small rotation can make you miss a positional. True North is there, yeah, but it doesn't help you when the tank moves the boss right before you hit your attack.

[Satarn]

I don't mind positionals as a mechanic, I really think it adds something more engaging, however, It's really frustrating when tanks keep rotating the boss way too much - sometimes, even just a small rotation can make you miss a positional. True North is there, yeah, but it doesn't help you when the tank moves the boss right before you hit your attack.

It's even more frustrating when you outright die because somebody runs into you during a spread AoE mechanic, but that's hardly a reason to remove all spread mechanics.

Making sure DPS can do their jobs comfortably is a big part of what the tank role in mmos is about. They've already been stripped of most of their personal impact and skill expression, there should be more reasons added to position properly in fights, not less. The entire point of trinity system is that every role has to perform in order for others to work right - you can't just remove anything that requires cooperation in a co-op game, just because "other people making mistakes is inconvenient to me". This shouldn't even be taken into consideration honestly.

[Raikai]

It's even more frustrating when you outright die because somebody runs into you during a spread AoE mechanic, but that's hardly a reason to remove all spread mechanics.

Making sure DPS can do their jobs comfortably is a big part of what the tank role in mmos is about. They've already been stripped of most of their personal impact and skill expression, there should be more reasons added to position properly in fights, not less. The entire point of trinity system is that every role has to perform in order for others to work right - you can't just remove anything that requires cooperation in a co-op game, just because "other people making mistakes is inconvenient to me". This shouldn't even be taken into consideration honestly.

Yeah, I agree with that point of view. It's just that gets a bit frustrating at some point to play a positionals-based job.

I'm complaining but it's really not the design's fault, but you getting teamed with a tank that just doesn't care about MNK, DRG, etc... I just stopped to run random content with monk altogether because of this frustration.

[IruruCece]

Yeah, I agree with that point of view. It's just that gets a bit frustrating at some point to play a positionals-based job.

I'm complaining but it's really not the design's fault, but you getting teamed with a tank that just doesn't care about MNK, DRG, etc... I just stopped to run random content with monk altogether because of this frustration.

You see, this is where I have a tough time understanding why anyone complained about Monk's positionals prior to the latest patch. We had the ability to ignore positionals for lengthy periods of time thanks to True North and the old Earth's Reply, to the point where SE NERFED those two abilities so that we would engage with positionals MORE.

It has never been very hard to land positionals, full stop. The game provides visual cues that tell us if we're at a target's rear OR their flank, and in optimal situations you're not even moving that far. I'm sorry you've come across some legitimately terrible tank players, but if we adjust everything based on player's ability to mess with someone else, we may as well remove Rescue, Taunt, and Shirk from the game too. Hell, just remove aggro from the game too, and make it so that enemies target tanks first, then DPS, then healers.

If the complaints about positionals are centered around dungeons and large pulls, then honestly they make even less sense. With Shadowbringers, Monks got a full AOE rotation that should be getting spammed like mad if there are at least three targets or more. There is little reason to worry about losing DPS due to missing positionals in the vast majority of content outside of bosses.

If nothing else, I think this says a lot about some very basic problems with FF14's dungeon design: They're theme parks that all inevitable degenerate down to "Pull to the wall, AOE the group, single target the stragglers." I don't think this is actually fixable, though, because that's how the game has been for so long. If they actually made fights leading up to the bosses require light parties to take mechanics like positionals more seriously, I think you'd see players complain that the pace of the dungeons is then too slow/demanding. So, for the game that FF14 actually is, it's up to the boss encounters themselves to justify the full extent of player's abilities, and that currently includes positionals on melee DPS.

And honestly, SE has done a pretty good job at mixing things up there. There are a number of bosses where positionals are barely or straight up not a factor whatsoever due to their sheer size, or because the encounters are designed in a very specific way, for cinematic/gameplay purposes.

At the end of the day, you have to accept that you will miss positionals sometimes, either because you screwed up, or because another player screwed up. And that's fine.

[CKNovel]

At the end of the day, you have to accept that you will miss positionals sometimes, either because you screwed up, or because another player screwed up. And that's fine.

A good answer, but this basically reminds me of Shinryu.
It was a "difficult" content and necessary to the story.

Of course there was no mechanics but it required more than previous trials mechanic wise.

There was major complains about its difficulty, how it should be toned dowN
That shows that a majority refuses to accept their mistakes.

[Raikai]

You see, this is where I have a tough time understanding why anyone complained about Monk's positionals prior to the latest patch. We had the ability to ignore positionals for lengthy periods of time thanks to True North and the old Earth's Reply, to the point where SE NERFED those two abilities so that we would engage with positionals MORE.

Again like I said, is not the design's fault. Positionals is a mechanic that I actually enjoy because keeps some kind of dynamic differently than just pressing buttons in a specific order or condition.

My complaint is about the user: bad tanks that simply do not care about the dpers. And no, True North doesn't help if the tank flips the target right as your finger is landing on the key. I honestly don't know if I'm just unlucky or something, but when it comes to random groups I always end with that kind of tank all the time.

Miss positionals sometimes is fine... Missing them constantly is not, but hey... The only solution to this, I am doing, which is not using Monk in random runs.

[Caitsithhh]

You probably missed some episodes, here and there. Especially the part that outperforming a ranged on equal gear is far from difficult. Doing the minimal will be enough.
Or that DPS isn't the only problem in ranged's current state.

As you said, design in ultimate and savages are completely different, Ultimate DPS check isn't really hard, it's way heavier mechanic wise. Some claims that it's a joke.
And since you want to pick TEA as an example, during many mechanics, the boss is not targetable at all. Being a ranged, melee or caster has little impact in there. And during the first two phase, the least you move the better.

Comparing early savage DPS check and Ultimate DPS check, that's pepega.

EDIT: Anyway, mind if we can go back to the initial discussion about positionnals?
I'll gladly answer, but there's plenty of ranged subject to debate about it.

You do perfect alex is an actual check right? And the first two phases favors a class like bard(starting to think you may be just regurgitating guide knowledge since you know nothing of actual substance...so careful throwing pepega around when that’s just a smoothbrain move). Running double phys ranged on perfect Alex is probably on release the very hardest check in the game. Comparing current TEA is like comparing savage to echo/pre-echo. It’s a joke now that gear and food/pots have made it much easier the first 3 phases. Again, your actual knowledge is laughable
SO do be careful going that route.

The convo has shifted because removing positionals is a troll topic at best. It’s the same as greeding casts to improve dps. Take the chances to nail them and get rewarded. There a reason you think discussing removing them warrants more talk? Cuz actually sadge if so.

[Caitsithhh]

You do perfect alex is an actual check right? And the first two phases favors a class like bard(starting to think you may be just regurgitating guide knowledge since you know nothing of actual substance...so careful throwing pepega around when that’s just a smoothbrain move). Running double phys ranged on perfect Alex is probably on release the very hardest check in the game. Comparing current TEA is like comparing savage to echo/pre-echo. It’s a joke now that gear and food/pots have made it much easier the first 3 phases. Again, your actual knowledge is laughable
SO do be careful going that route.

The convo has shifted because removing positionals is a troll topic at best. It’s the same as greeding casts to improve dps. Take the chances to nail them and get rewarded. There a reason you think discussing removing them warrants more talk? Cuz actually sadge if so.

You’re welcome to prove you’re not just copypasta btw!