Positionals

[IruruCece]

Given their speed, they're already losing dps from having a shorter window to reposition and keep track of their buffs. So adding yet another button, which adds yet another buff to keep track of on top of all that, does nothing to dismiss the issue whatsoever. It just exacerbate the issue.

Positionals, even right now, are straight up not hard to land and never have been. They have never been hard to perform beyond whatever stuff SE makes a boss do, and they've even given us extremely handy, omnipresent markers at the boss' feet to let us know if we are or aren't flanking a target. If you position yourself correctly, you will NEVER have to travel very far to switch between positional requirements, even with the current speed we're permanently set to at 80.

The challenge isn't in performing the action, it's in responding correctly to what the encounter is throwing at us. You can say that about every single job in the game. That's where the challenge and depth come from. For BLM, the solution to fights that demand movement that interrupts their DPS cycles is not and should not be "complain on the forums that a fight is hard to cast in and should be changed to suit their job better." What it is, and should always be, is something that a player can work their way through using the tools at their disposal, and a little effort on their part to learn the fight and play better with every attempt. Furthermore, pretending that Monk is unique in player stress just because it's fast ignores the vast array of challenges faced by every other job in the game.

If you don't want to play jobs with positionals, play the jobs without them. There are plenty. I do not want Monk to be more Dragoon-like or more Black Mage-like. I want it to be Monk, and like it or not, positionals are and have always been part of that. The continued lack of interest in playing the job in raids among the community suggests that simplifying the job while once again failing to resolve long-standing issues with its kit was the wrong call to make. The answer to that shouldn't be to make it even easier to play, and if the devs do decide to lean in that direction, then whatever they do come 6.0 needs to be a rework that makes what happened to Machinists look like a minor button cull, while also being liked after the fact.

Until SE proves otherwise, I expect little and less from them in regards to making MNK better, and for me it's staying shelved until that mythical time allegedly approaching us all come 6.0.

[VentVanitas]

My point in the above post is that monk having omnipresent directional requirements and a massive haste buff is counter intuitive. Given their speed, they're already losing dps from having a shorter window to reposition and keep track of their buffs. So adding yet another button, which adds yet another buff to keep track of on top of all that, does nothing to dismiss the issue whatsoever. It just exacerbate the issue.

I think you fundamentally misunderstand what MNK is and what's actually wrong with it. Their multiple positionals and GCD speed are one of the few things left on the job that still has synergy after SE has stripped it of everything. Asking players to keep track of these things with a less than 2 second GCD isn't counter-intuitive, it's called expecting some level of skill when playing the job and there's nothing wrong with that. IruruCece is right, if you want to remove MNK's only engaging thing it has left, then just play SAM or DRG.

I'm also going to be honest, if you struggle to hit positionals as MNK, it's either because a mechanic is preventing you, or you're simply not good enough. It is not that hard to keep track of once you play the job long enough, especially when it's literally the only thing you have to do on MNK at this point. (As well as the copious amounts of positional mitigation that other melee wish they had, even if Riddle of Earth is bad)

[LeonKeyh]

My point in the above post is that monk having omnipresent directional requirements and a massive haste buff is counter intuitive. Given their speed, they're already losing dps from having a shorter window to reposition and keep track of their buffs. So adding yet another button, which adds yet another buff to keep track of on top of all that, does nothing to dismiss the issue whatsoever. It just exacerbate the issue.

Dragoon works because its a single long rotation, so at some point you just know what to press. Samurai is about building up burst DPS. Monk's key feature is being fast, so lessening the number of positional requirements does not detract from the job's character. It just makes it more balanced with the other melee dps. Otherwise, what is SE going to do? The only thing left besides eliminating positional requirements would be buffing its raw damage through the roof so that it matches the performance of other melee in hard content, and make it an utter god in all casual content.

Edit: Another perspective is that its the speed of the monk that weighs more negatively on the job, because each button press represents a decision, an expenditure of mental resources, from the player. So the monk has to perform more button presses than a dragoon or samurai to achieve the same result. Forcing directionals on top of that just adds more human resource consumption to each button press. So it wears out players faster, and then performance degrades. It's a significant issue in FFXIV because of how long some boss fights take.

I've admittedly only leveled MNK to 80 then set it aside, but I only remember Back and Flank positional requirements which, if you're close to the transition area, 1.5 seconds is more than enough to move between. Also, even a MNK not hitting positionals or hitting positionals sporadically would do good DPS. The fact that there are so many positionals give them a higher skill ceiling which is great for players that are looking for a complex melee class.

Also, the MNK rotation may be a little complex, but it was fairly easy to get into a rhythm with the positionals and it _feels good_. You brought up Dragoon and that has something that I would like to see with MNK though. MNK has very little visual indicators on whether or not you're actually hitting positionals (bigger numbers, if you know what the numbers should be). Whereas Dragoon has 1 ability that I'd love to see at least on MNK; Raiden Thrust. It replaces the combo starter with a slightly higher potency ability if you hit your positionals. It'd be great to see something like that because it's a nice visual indicator that pops up and says "Good job!" Having Dragon Kick replacing Bootshine with another ability if you hit the positional would be more interesting than the current Leaden Fist (double Bootshine potency) at the very least.

Maybe it's just me though

[Payotz]

Let's not kid ourselves and start talking about how "well the tank needs to do xyz and position xyz" when 95% of players do not run with statics and only guild members and even then a lot of aoes in this game spawn at random spots around the boss.

You're basically complaining that a tank actually needs a bare minimum of thought, and that you actually should know the basics of tanking to actually play. I don't agree with this assessment.
There should be MORE instances where the boss needs to be repositioned to do a mechanic, and there should be LESS instances of mechanics being static.

Yes as a tank main and with tank changes in 5.0 the vast majority are terrible and can't even use mitigators let alone position the boss for melee so thats also a huge problem

Uhh, sure the tank changes are terrible because it serverely dumbed down Tank Gameplay as a whole, NOT because you can't use "mitigation". Tank positioning and mitigation are _BASICS_ of Tank Gameplay. Learn it, it's not that hard.

As a caster I can slam everyone and everything from any angle but melee I have to hike around and pick sides?

Yes, cause caster gameplay is literally picking a position on the arena where you can stand still and cast spells. Most of casters doesn't have movement.
Melee gameplay is literally sticking to the boss and moving at an angle. You literally have free movement, no cast times (unless it's a Midare) as long as you're within Melee Range.
We don't talk about Physical Ranged.

Most roles revolve around a core skill that you have to learn in order to play it differently(Physical Ranged used to have one but ehhhhhhh....), and tank is no exception. Learn the basics of the role and enjoy the extra gameplay.

[Arkdra]

When I'm in Eureka or Bozja, I don't miss them at all, so I wouldn't really care if they removed them. But I am also not clamoring for it specifically.

What I will clamor for is for positionals to no longer exist in the open world because it makes the open world tedious. Can keep them in instanced group content though where they at least make some sense.

[ItMe]

What I will clamor for is for positionals to no longer exist in the open world because it makes the open world tedious.

I don't follow.
In what way does it make the open world tedious?
Like... oh no it's awkward to hit positionals on the trash mobs littering the overworld?
I honestly don't see SQEX removing them just from the overworld. Having the class work the same in all content (but PVP) is important. Cutting them while in the overworld doesn't add anything.

[Arkdra]

I don't follow.
In what way does it make the open world tedious?
Like... oh no it's awkward to hit positionals on the trash mobs littering the overworld?
I honestly don't see SQEX removing them just from the overworld. Having the class work the same in all content (but PVP) is important. Cutting them while in the overworld doesn't add anything.

Because it's a pointless tax on my damage (and also fun since I play samurai mainly and missing positionals means less kenki) while being out and about in the open world. Or when I grind fates. Ground a lot of fates this last expansion thanks to the bi-color gemstones and you know what sucks? 1-3 manning a boss fate and tanking it as a samurai so I can't hit my positionals (outside of using low blow and true north obviously).

Like I see the value of the positional requirements, they make melee just a little bit spicier than ranged and I can appreciate that. But if I don't have something that can tank for me, then it just sucks out loud.

Although, joke answer, buff the hell out of chocobo enmity generation and that would work too.

[Styrmwyda]

Because it's a pointless tax on my damage (and also fun since I play samurai mainly and missing positionals means less kenki) while being out and about in the open world. Or when I grind fates. Ground a lot of fates this last expansion thanks to the bi-color gemstones and you know what sucks? 1-3 manning a boss fate and tanking it as a samurai so I can't hit my positionals (outside of using low blow and true north obviously).

Like I see the value of the positional requirements, they make melee just a little bit spicier than ranged and I can appreciate that. But if I don't have something that can tank for me, then it just sucks out loud.

Although, joke answer, buff the hell out of chocobo enmity generation and that would work too.

I think instead of removing positionals, they should instead remove some of the more annoying penalties for missing your positionals. Simple damage penalty would be better.

[Burningskull]

As someone who use to main melee jobs and plays on controller, and who doesn't savage / ultimate raid, I don't think positionals add much to gameplay. I flick the control stick left or right once every few button presses. There's not much skill in that. The skill comes from memorizing a fight and knowing when the boss is going to turn or jump away or any of that type of stuff. Which you would still need to do even without positionals. I will say that until they remove positionals I wont personally even consider maining something other than Dancer. Unless they really mess up Dancer next expansion.

[Satarn]

As someone who use to main melee jobs and plays on controller, and who doesn't savage / ultimate raid, I don't think positionals add much to gameplay.

In harder content, you can't just move however you please all the time due to mechanics requiring more precise positioning from everyone. That means if you want to maximize your positionals as a melee DPS, you often need to take them into account while planning your movement and rotation, the tanks need to take them into account while positioning the boss and the group needs to take them into account while planning the strats.

No, removing positionals wouldn't completely cut movement, rotation, positioning and strat planning, but it would remove some depth from them, which many of us consider a loss. It's the same with any other aspect of the game and positionals play a part in many of these aspects. If you remove a part of something, you take away some of the depth with it, which in turn makes it less engaging to many.

Besides, if you don't even do content where dps matters, I don't see why would you be so turned off by positionals being required for best performance - it's not like they will matter at all in the content which you do. You can play a melee while ignoring positionals and perform well enough to clear in any dungeon or normal/alliance raid, even in extremes.