Positionals

[ssunny2008]

Sry i don´t want to quote X posts.

POSITIONALS ON MONK ARE FINE!

The core reason why SAM is the most played class doesn´t come with the limited positionals. It´s the damage and overall kit. Not any other class is so easy and forgivable with a perfect dodge/dash kit and the possibility to adjust your rotation at any time thx to the lengths of buffs. On top of that it´s the strongest DPS and i would call it even broken compared to others. Only the BLM is able to do more dmg, but that is behind far more restrictions and based on circumstances.
DRG on the other hand is a starter class as MNK is. He´s easy to play, has the best background, sick animations and strong buffs. Ofc there is still NIN, but i highly doubt that the most players will change on level 10. I don´t even like the animations and other probably dislike the ninjutsu.

That said, there are actually 4 melee classes for everyone, for different tastes:

You love the feeling of smashing everything into the ground easily? You need that self-convinience of being powerful without that much efford? Play SAM.
You love to jump around like a badass or being that troll who backjump from the platform to wipe your raid and pressing 12345678 between that? Play DRG.
You want to be that sneaky assassin with more movement speed and being Naruto who has an answer for every situation? Play NIN.
You are sleepy and need something to hurry to actually wake up and get feel of doing more than 123? You may love the streetfighter series? Play MNK.

Choose your path, there is enough variaty for any taste and DEFINATELY NO NEED TO CHANGE ANYTHING in the core. (Only SAM needs definately a nerf.)

And well... Iru is right. MNK got way more braindead with the big "rework" and now ppl complain about the last aspect you´ve to care about... positionals. It´s ridiculous. I can just say it again, stop trying to take the fun from others away from the game. You don´t want to play permanent positionals? Choose one of the other 3 melees or anything else than MNK. FF14 offers a lot for everyone and yes there are players who play MNK because of them. Because it´s more fun and engaging.
And not every class needs the same amount of players who use them. If 50% of all players use SAM for some obvious reason and only 2% MNK, who cares? Pretty much everyone eat an original italian pizza too, but probably only 10% love one with salami. Do we need to get ride of the salami now to cater the other 90%, when there is an original pizza already? Common guys...

[Kolsykol]

Do BLM really have more tools tho?
Thundercloud procs are RNG ( I am aware of Sharpcast ), and holding back Triplecast for mobility does hurt your dps altho that's sort of a trade-off that's worth it if you know what you're doing but that's also where skill and knowledge of fights come into play.
Then you have Xenoglossy and the teleport only works against specific mechanics.

I really don't think that equates to more tools over 20s no positional req in total which is a long time if you actually save them for when necessary ( 38s for Monk with Riddle of Earth ).
Not to mention that you can still hit even if you do miss your positional it's still better than not attacking at all.
BLM also kinda just needs the tools because they have Enochian to keep up that very easily falls off especially if you have to move at the wrong time.

[LeonKeyh]

Again though, BLM have more tools to deal with those challenges than MDPS do.

Do BLM really have more tools tho?

Even if you concede to the fact that BLM has more tools to deal with those challenges, they need them to do any damage at all, and melee DPS needs tools to do...slightly more. You're comparing apples and oranges. If BLM can't cast, they do 0 damage. If melee can't hit their positionals they do 90% of their possible damage.

[Nothv13]

Even if you concede to the fact that BLM has more tools to deal with those challenges, they need them to do any damage at all, and melee DPS needs tools to do...slightly more. You're comparing apples and oranges. If BLM can't cast, they do 0 damage. If melee can't hit their positionals they do 90% of their possible damage.

Since melee also have to deal with not being able to hit the boss, how about we throw positionals onto the BLM as well? What people seem to not be getting is that positionals are on top all the other things from more complex rotations to mechanics that just make it so that you simply cannot hit the boss.

[ssunny2008]

Since melee also have to deal with not being able to hit the boss, how about we throw positionals onto the BLM as well? What people seem to not be getting is that positionals are on top all the other things from more complex rotations to mechanics that just make it so that you simply cannot hit the boss.

I can just repeat, what i wrote in the other thread. Melee classes have the biggest DPS output overall and it´s definately calculated, that you have to disengage here and there. Nothing is wrong with the class balancing if you compare Melees and Caster. Both have their tools to play around nearly any mechanic to hold 99-100% uptime. It´s up to you to find a way / the perfect timing.
And i don´t really understand your 2nd sentence. First positionals are meaningless etc..., now they´re on the top of all other things from more complexity? Sry if i understand something wrong, i´m not native english, but that seems a bit contradictory.
And just an example:

E11s active DPS on my MNK: 82,94% / on my static BLM from my main char, who has ~ the same skill level: 82,11%
E9s, which is really MNK unfriendly: Both 99,62 in the best tries

So yeah...

Hell, DRG has an ability that requires you to hit 2 positionals to even activate it.

Since when does DRG has positionals to activate something? Is there anything I miss? I´m pretty sure you get your 40 potency on positionals and that´s it, which means 200 potency loss each 10 key rotation if you play them all wrong. Your Blood of the Dragon timer will get 10s on top anyway and the special skills are activated with the 2nd use of Mirage Dive.

[Nothv13]

Since when does DRG has positionals to activate something? Is there anything I miss? I´m pretty sure you get your 40 potency on positionals and that´s it, which means 200 potency loss each 10 key rotation if you play them all wrong. Your Blood of the Dragon timer will get 10s on top anyway and the special skills are activated with the 2nd use of Mirage Dive.

Raiden thrust. DRG get a skill that is just a small potency upgrade that requires you to hit two positionals before it activates. Waste of a level up skill and should have simply been baked into True thrust if pressent at all.

[LeonKeyh]

Since melee also have to deal with not being able to hit the boss, how about we throw positionals onto the BLM as well? What people seem to not be getting is that positionals are on top all the other things from more complex rotations to mechanics that just make it so that you simply cannot hit the boss.

Is this a troll account? It has to be right? What's your real primary account/character?

We've already gone through all of this. Each role (except Ranged Physical, which is part of the reason it feels so unfulfilling) has combat mechanics that ultimately create a puzzle whenever combined with fight mechanics. Casters (DPS and Healers) have cast times which they can't move during, melee has positionals and range limitations.

[IruruCece]

One of the biggest problems with the "just stay behind the boss and hit buttons, don't worry about positionals" argument is that conflicts with another problem that some melee job players seem to think should also be "fixed", and that's "The boss sometimes does things that make me run away and I can't hit them!"

Removing positionals from the game means that SE's only real means of controlling melee players will be increasingly more elaborate AoEs, which will also negatively affect jobs with cast times, and honestly I think that will result is less interesting encounter design. One of the reasons I don't care too much about trying to do Savage/Ultimate is I simply do not have the time or willingness to learn what amounts to an arbitrary interpretive dance. It doesn't look fun, visually it's a mess that my increasingly older eyes just can't keep up with. But the endpoint for the removal positionals will be to bring that sort of design to standard content in order to provide challenge.

That might not bother me too much in the end, because it would be balanced for the rest of us. But given that there's been a rash of players complaining about needing to stay in MELEE RANGE as their MELEE JOBS, removing positionals will ultimately have solved nothing for people who don't want to be asked by the game to do anything in any specific way.

[Dzian]

One of the biggest problems with the "just stay behind the boss and hit buttons, don't worry about positionals" argument is that conflicts with another problem that some melee job players seem to think should also be "fixed", and that's "The boss sometimes does things that make me run away and I can't hit them!"

Removing positionals from the game means that SE's only real means of controlling melee players will be increasingly more elaborate AoEs, which will also negatively affect jobs with cast times, and honestly I think that will result is less interesting encounter design. One of the reasons I don't care too much about trying to do Savage/Ultimate is I simply do not have the time or willingness to learn what amounts to an arbitrary interpretive dance. It doesn't look fun, visually it's a mess that my increasingly older eyes just can't keep up with. But the endpoint for the removal positionals will be to bring that sort of design to standard content in order to provide challenge.

That might not bother me too much in the end, because it would be balanced for the rest of us. But given that there's been a rash of players complaining about needing to stay in MELEE RANGE as their MELEE JOBS, removing positionals will ultimately have solved nothing for people who don't want to be asked by the game to do anything in any specific way.

Given Yoshis frequent opinion that jobs should be simple, and the difficulty should be from mechanics. I can sort of see the point your trying to make.

but I would also make the comment that if positionals are the only thing that keeps an encounter interesting then there's obviously a very big problem with encounter design as a whole.

I personally would like to see the balance changed a bit in terms of the combat : mechanics ratio. By making combat a bigger portion of the equation you can open up a lot of room to add some actual depth and interesting elements to jobs, which in turn would allow them to feel more rewarding to play..

But if hitting a positional for a staggering 2-3 potency per second increase is the most interesting thing about combat then there's obviously some much bigger issues. This is further demonstrated by the fact many of the people who want to keep positionals want to do so for the sole reason that they'd find combat "boring" without them.

They've had systems and ideas that have actually added depth and interest to combat.
The idea of battle regimens from 1.0 had a ton of potential.
The incapacitation system again had a ton of potential as you could actually change fights with it. break a bosses arm and he cant do that cleave... and thus will resort to other tactics...

Then there things like Crowd Control, Interupts, Kiting, Priority targets, etc. Even earlier dungeons had these things. Mobs that should be focussed such as those pesky bees that will final sting for example or mobs that had to be killed in a specific spot. where as now its just mindlessly aoe everything down and move along.

If you go back to 1.23 even the combat system was better and more dynamic. Rotations werent so strict and rigid but often required opportunity.. Even for tanks where there was an element of skill involved in timing that moment where you could duck behind a boss and start your dps combo without moving or turning them and getting everyone else killed..

Where now rotations are static dull and boring. they never really change much.. If it wasn't for the devs blocking queues on macros players would literally macro entire rotations because every boss is the same. Which is why people often refer to muscle memory because all you ever do is the same rotation over and over and over..

But when positionals are literally the most interesting thing about combat. it says alot about the combat...

They really do need to add some fun, interesting and actual rewarding elements to combat. Even if that means making encounters mechanically simpler. If the jobs are more fun and engaging to play I think thats a decent trade off and would allow for a decent skill ceiling.

[ReynTime]

Given Yoshis frequent opinion that jobs should be simple, and the difficulty should be from mechanics. I can sort of see the point your trying to make.
.

Did he really say that? :/ Is there an interview link?