Nature of the Sound

[dreamfisher]

The Anyder

Unless I'm misinterpreting, they use that term as a short form for the Anamnesis Anyder, which is odd anyway because there are at least two different locations in Amaurot with the suffix - the other being the Akadaemia which seems to be the base for the Convocation.

This is getting a bit off-topic, but in Thomas More's Utopia, Hythlodaeus describes the Anyder as a large river near which the capital city of Amaurot was built.
Similarly, our Anyder may have also been a river, with these two facilities built on it.

[Vyrerus]

The issue with

Oh, why is that? Our band of heroes is small and routinely saves the world from world ending threats. Why does the size of the group propagating the disaster matter? For that matter, the Convocation of 14 is a small group, and they over millenia have destroyed entire worlds in the name of Rejoinings.

Also, I think you misunderstand the idea behind the Sound. The Sound itself only had the power to drive the Ancients mad. Once the Ancient's own creation magicks were running amok causing their worst ideas, nightmares, and dark fantasies to come to life it had but to spread. Think of it like a germ. It infects one individual. That individual goes on to infect more individuals. In time, a pandemic ensues, and then what?

By the time Zodiark was conceived, they weren't just stopping the Sound. They were stopping the entirety of all lifeforms with creation magicks worldwide. Also, it's actually still up for debate as to whether or not Zodiark stopped the cause of the Sound, as his main focus was to stop the apocalypse it had wrought. It actually wasn't explicitly stated that he stopped the source.

We can conjecture, too, that Zodiark did this without killing a single Ancient that wasn't part of the sacrifices required to first create him and then to undo the apocalypse and its damage. The reason he was not a long term solution is because every world bending action he took required sacrifice, but also because the Ancients never fully learnt the cause of their apocalypse. This meant more apocalypses while the body of leadership had become zealots for their man-made god.

Hydaelyn was made specifically to combat Zodiark, and until they tell us otherwise, I'm still of the belief that her enervating power was taken too far, and that the Sundering was incidental. That it stopped the Sound only incidentally, and it was actually a horrible mistake.

As for Fandaniel needing a ton of power to bring the Sound back or what have you... well that's going to come from the Ancient's own gods once they're dug up. We're going to get a gravy train of all the missing puzzle pieces here at the end of November, but I firmly believe that Fandaniel's twisted mind comes from being related to what the source of the Sound is actually. He doesn't really need the same exact proportions as the original Final Days to pull off another Armageddon. We are still sundered beings after all.

Consider this: If the Ascians had wanted to end the world, then they could have. They could have at any point in their history. One now does, and he has all of the old knowledge to do so. Knowledge is power, or so the saying goes, and knowledge is going to be a theme in Endwalkers, I think.

[TheRealQuah]

Who is Zenos. Why is he so strong? It's not the resonant, sure that is a boon, but it's not what's making him so powerful.

Could Zenos hold the sundered soul of whoever/whatever caused the sound?


When the final days came, they needed Zodiark to restore the balance. The final days are come again, are we going to need the help of Zodiark to combat it?

[Kesey]

This is getting a bit off-topic, but in Thomas More's Utopia, Hythlodaeus describes the Anyder as a large river near which the capital city of Amaurot was built.
Similarly, our Anyder may have also been a river, with these two facilities built on it.

No, the explanation of Anyder is even simplifier. Anyder means "water-less" and both dungeons attached with the name Anyder are places under the ocean that have had the water removed so we could explore them.

Anyder is also mentioned in Thomas More's Utopia as the name of a river on his Utopian island; the implication in the context of More's work is a source of water for his perfect society has all the positive benefits (clean drinking water, places to wash clothes, irrigate crops) but none of the bad (flooding, drowning, washing things away), in other words the only thing a water less river could provide. The reference is cool because Emet thinks of Amarout as a Utopia, so we get names like Akadaemia Andyer, instead of Sunken Akadaemia.

[dreamfisher]

No, the explanation of Anyder is even simplifier. Anyder means "water-less" and both dungeons attached with the name Anyder are places under the ocean that have had the water removed so we could explore them.

Anyder is also mentioned in Thomas More's Utopia as the name of a river on his Utopian island; the implication in the context of More's work is a source of water for his perfect society has all the positive benefits (clean drinking water, places to wash clothes, irrigate crops) but none of the bad (flooding, drowning, washing things away), in other words the only thing a water less river could provide. The reference is cool because Emet thinks of Amarout as a Utopia, so we get names like Akadaemia Andyer, instead of Sunken Akadaemia.

I haaad started to think along these lines, but stopped myself for fear of over-speculating.
When you consider the etymology of Amaurot and how perfectly that fits with a reimagined city filled with phantoms, you could easily be onto something. I like your thinking, Uplander!

Also, the way

Deep in the Tempest─deeper still than the phantom Amaurot of Emet-Selch's design─lies what remains of Anyder's ancient edifices.

is phrased doesn't really sound like it's describing a river to me. Maybe I just got my hopes up because Gobbiekin build stops long and short along rivers.

[EaraGrace]

Oh, why is that? Our band of heroes is small and routinely saves the world from world ending threats...

Once again disclaimer that perhaps Endwalker will add things and we’ll have an understanding that matches your interpretation.

It’s stated by Venats group themselves that their numeric disadvantage does pose a big challenge to fighting Zodiark, one only overcome through the creation of the magicks for enervation as well as having Venat specifically serve as the core. Even then it only barely works and takes an extended conflict.

And the Sound is described as doing far more than simply hijacking powers, but breaking the laws of existence to such an extent as to require mending by an entity as powerful as Zodiark. It’s even described as distorting living things who hear it. Not to mention, the Sound isn’t described as spreading from person to person like a germ or virus, but like a virus infecting the world itself. Which is why the plan to give a will to the star came forth, to stand in opposition using their most powerful creation magic.

On stopping the Sound, my point is that to believe that Zodiark halted the Final Days but not the Sound in some manner (either by cutting off its influence or forcing its hibernation) requires a pretty weird set of circumstances to occur. Not only would the Sound have to decide of its volition to cease, but it would have to continue to do so until Hydaelyn is summoned and it’s actually subdued. That’s what I found to be ridiculous about the speculation above.

On enervation, while no clear confirmation exists its unlikely that they’re wasn’t a least an understanding the enervating the “will of the star” would cause issues. It doesn’t make their actions wrong, just complicated.

[Vyrerus]

Once again disclaimer

Yes, the story has Venat's group point out that they're under dogs, so that we sympathize more with them. However, we already know that they succeed, so in all honesty it's dynamic bluster for the script. It
"barely" working is never shown, so not sure why you're cooking on that griddle. If anything it's shown to not work as intended or work too well in fact, as it literally killed the rest of their civilization, as well as all other civilizations on the planet, and caused a rend in space/time/aether for the entire planet, resulting in the present day scenario. Talk about a "fix."

The Sound is never described to break the laws of existence. It is described to distort all life that hears it, causing said life to lose control of their creation magicks, which in turn causes them to manifest all of their concepts, but especially the worst, most monstrous ones. This in turn drives fear into the hearts of everyone who witnesses it, and they are set upon by the malformed beasts, and then they themselves are killed or lose control of the needed focus to create good creations. Voice of Emet-Selch: Once the fear has taken root, it cannot be expunged... What spread around like a plague was a fear of this event before it even actually ever happened, priming the inevitable to be even worse than it would have been otherwise. You can see this in the sidequest for flying where an Amaurotine has you play with his concept for toys, and the toys wind up being slimes that attempt to kill you while shouting playful japes. It doesn't take much, after all, to ruin a concept as another couple of Amaurotines state that even just seeing another creature, person, or having an idle thought come up while you create can radically alter your creation. The anxiety brought by the Sound gradually ruining the world was very much a plague.

This also implies that the creation is unchecked, and it's of such a scope that the necessary aether to do it is not just sourced from the Ancient's innate powers, but from the land, the planet, itself. This is why Zodiark's initial conception required sacrifice of half their people to first be created, and then another half of them to restore the land. The land had nothing left to give, because it was drained by rampant and unchecked creation magic, as well as physically battered by all manner of attack and disaster, mostly meteorites.

And I think your thoughts on your point are still conceptually at a misunderstanding. The Sound as described in game seemed to methodically advance through civilizations, carving a path to Amaurot last. It was sudden, so you couldn't predict when it would happen to your home. We're never told just how much information the Convocation has about it, and the biggest source for what it does comes from the, "Anxious Amaurotine" NPC in the first set of MSQs upon arriving in Amaurot's illusion. Zodiark is said to have stopped the Final Days by, "rewriting the laws of reality" but we've never been told what that entails. You tell me though, whether it's by rewriting the laws or reality or just a hand wave, how does Zodiark stop the Sound at its source, if he doesn't know what its Source is? Like, Zodiark is extremely powerful, that's mainly what the, "rewrite reality's laws" bit is really trying to say to us, narratively, but it doesn't make sense that he could know more than his creators.

My point on this is, is that you cannot dismiss the idea that the Sound's source wasn't stopped, until we're given the information that the Convocation knew that there was a source for it that could be stopped. However, obviously, they could have just had Zodiark make Amaurotines/Ancients immune to the Sound. So the sound keens cacophonously, and it does nothing, because it's a new law of reality. Of course, then, whatever is the Source of the Sound just has to tweak its design, and make it circumvent the new laws, once again distorting life and creation magicks and the whole nine yards. I imagine that the situation with Hydaelyn came about soon enough that this design could not yet be changed. Of course, it's also the fact that the Ancient population was pretty starved for people by this point, and it was ultimately their powers that were hijacked that caused the Final Days (siphoned directly from their minds, as the Anxious Amaurotine puts it, from the rumors he heard).

However, look at the Endwalkers trailer. We're fighting the same monsters that we fight just before we fight Therion in Amaurot's apocalyptic recreation. First the dahaks which are, "Terminus Lacerators" and then later Estinien/Vrtra fight, "Terminus Idolizers." People are being forced into Fandaniel's Towers, having their aether and conceptions of gods siphoned from their minds and given form at a cost to the land. It's play for play the same moves that brought about the first Final Days.

Further still, there's another bit that we're never directly told about Zodiark. If the Ancients believed the planet itself to be sick, then what would be the point of giving it an actual, living will? So that it could suffer more or be controlled? Whose plan/idea/concept was that? Who proposed it at the Convocation? Why would beings capable of making a being that's capable of rewriting reality not simply be able to rewrite reality themselves? Consolidating all the power and wisdom into a single entity just sounds like asking for trouble to me, but in a time of crisis such plans are often seen as the best and only way forward.

And I already addressed it somewhat, but on the topic of enervation, at the time it was a completely new concept for a form of attack. Emet-selch said in the Qitana Ravel that it was theretofore unseen. From the way he describes it, it's intrinsically morally bad, as it clones the person it targets, splitting them into two new lives, each deserving of life but with less power and lifespan than the original (Twice the suffering, twice the death). They didn't know what it would do, long term, much like the Manhattan Project wasn't sure whether or not a nuclear bomb would ignite the atmosphere and kill everyone or not, as some scientists theorized. So Hydaelyn winds up nullifying Zodiark, again, literally at the cost of the rest of the lives of every living being on the planet, the planet itself, and the regular state of the planet splitting it into a 14-way mess. That's not only complicated; it's wrong.

[Riastrad]

The timeline of the actual destruction of Ancient society is oddly incoherent. We know that it was destroyed when Hydaelyn sundered Zodiark and the Source, but I cannot for the life of me understand why She is only heard by those who see the Meteor Shower considering She had yet to be summoned by Venat's group.

We are told repeatedly that Zodiark not only ended the threat, but was being fed the souls of "lesser beings" to reconstitute the Ancients who had sacrificed themselves to "Rewrite the Laws of Reality". So the threat was over already and then here comes Hydaelyn, who again has nothing to do with whatever caused the keening, bonking Zodiark over the head and suddenly begins using Meteors to rekindle that spark that unlocks the Echo?

It seems more likely to me that Zodiark may have rewrote the laws but He and His creators didn't know what was actually causing the issue. An issue that Azem went to go investigate themselves. Do you not find that odd? Azem refuses to help either side summon their prospective gods and instead seeks the Source of the cacophony. They felt that Zodiark nor Hydaelyn had the answers to the problem because none of their summoners ever saw the worlds problem firsthand. They only knew the world as others told them it was. They (Azem) knew it had to be something else that was banking on both sides being so inept. It has to be malicious.

I don't trust Hydaelyn or the narrative that the Ascians are pushing. I think a parasite has literally wrapped its claws around the very weapons used to stop it. It's just a matter of time till we need to address that issue.

It's called The Echo for a reason. We haven't heard Hydaelyn for so long and are now only seeing what may very well be Her Heart (I am inclined to still believe that Minfilia/Ryne are still facsimile creations of Venat/Hydaelyn to help guide their respective societies) attempting communication. Not Hydaelyn the propaganda, but Venat the person. One final desperate plea for help because as we found out in Coil, Gods can be tempered too...

[EaraGrace]

Yes, the story has Venat's group…

In universe the conversation where the say that was not done for sympathy, but as a description of the situation from their perspective. The meta reasoning is inconsequential. And it did not kill, Emet Selch makes this distinction very clear, it divides but it doesn’t kill.

The Sound is never described to break the laws of existence.

Pragmatic Amaurotine: They will invoke our mightiest spells of creation to birth an entity of all-encompassing magnificence...and then they will rewrite the laws of existence.

The land had nothing left to give, because it was drained by rampant and unchecked creation magic.

I do not believe this was stated.

...Yet oh how the star had suffered. So many species lost. The land was blighted, the waters poisoned, and even the wind had ceased to blow.

The world is described as being “poisoned” and needing “cleansed.” Not lacking aether.

how does Zodiark stop the Sound at its source, if he doesn't know what its Source is?

You’re right that we don’t fully understand the mechanism, but that doesn’t mean we don’t have clues. And the fact that Zodiark is not just a primal but the will of the star and the Sound is described:

'Tis as if the star itself has fallen ill─as if a force inimical to life now festers and spreads.

Clearly the two are connected.

They created a being specifically tailored to act on what they know. And it worked. The Sound was stopped.

And perhaps like the Primals of the Beast Tribes that show knowledge and understanding beyond their summoners, the “will of the star” knew more about what ailed the star as a result of its power and position?

If the Ancients believed the planet itself to be sick, then what would be the point of giving it an actual, living will? So that it could suffer more or be controlled? Whose plan/idea/concept was that? Who proposed it at the Convocation? Why would beings capable of making a being that's capable of rewriting reality not simply be able to rewrite reality themselves? Consolidating all the power and wisdom into a single entity just sounds like asking for trouble to me, but in a time of crisis such plans are often seen as the best and only way forward.

Because they needed the combined strength of many Amaurotines to achieve that goal. Simply having a group of potentially discordant creation magic users try to rewrite existence seems unwise.

And perhaps a controversial position but the Sundering wasn’t wrong. The alternative was either killing or hurting everyone with another form of attack, doing nothing and allowing innocent lives to be sacrificed to a god who has tempered the most powerful people on the planet, or fighting and losing.

[Tensaihime]

It seems more likely to me that Zodiark may have rewrote the laws but He and His creators didn't know what was actually causing the issue. An issue that Azem went to go investigate themselves. Do you not find that odd? Azem refuses to help either side summon their prospective gods and instead seeks the Source of the cacophony. They felt that Zodiark nor Hydaelyn had the answers to the problem because none of their summoners ever saw the worlds problem firsthand. They only knew the world as others told them it was.

I liked Azem’s idea -at least one person should gather all the information they could about this catastrophe. Everybody couldn’t go, of course, not even after the Sound was stopped, but before anyone made another big move, it couldn’t hurt to go learn more about what started it all in the first place.