Nature of the Sound

[Lusavari]

As for Tempering, that depends on whether Tempering is a necessary and innate aspect of Primals, or whether it's something the Primals' creators baked into the product. There's reason to believe that ability to Temper might have been something the Convocation added on purpose - the world's woes were being caused by uncontrolled Creation magic, after all, so one way to combat the problem would be to create an entity that can impose his own control over individuals. The Ascians included Tempering when they taught the Beast Tribes to Summon, as doing so helped encourage the Tribes to summon again and again, and in general caused a lot of chaos.

If Tempering WAS a deliberate addition, then the Dissenters wouldn't necessarily have to include that aspect when they created their own Primal.

There's evidence for and against what you have to say, both in the Stormblood Primals. Susano-o didn't seem particularly interested in tempering the Kojin, but then again... his summoning wasn't exactly traditional. Kojin treasures are particularly prone to spawning primals when exposed to high aetherial levels though. They haven't made any known attempts to temper, in support of your baking argument.

However... Then we look at Lakshmi, another primal that was NOT summoned on purpose. She was summoned out of grief, and like the Kojin, the Ananta were never taught about summoning. Lakshmi appeared when the queen's daughter was killed and resurrected her. However, Lakshmi has been demonstrated to be the most temper-happy of all primals. The Ananta were pretty shocked when she appeared. They had no clue about anything relating to summoning.

I would argue it's just part of the natural skill set of a primal, as part of their self-preservation. It just seems to depend on the personality of the Primal as to how much they feel a need to do it, with Primals like Alexander deeming themselves to be too dangerous to the natural state of the world to allow themselves to continue to exist, thus Alexander didn't temper ANYTHING.

[Kesey]

The theory doesn't work because Azem wasn't a follower of Hydaelyn and didn't support her summoning. And given that WoL is a fractured soul, Azem was either sundered along with the rest of the world or somehow survived only to be sundered at a later date. If anything it's most likely the Twelve are just half-recollections of the Convocation, or even simply all interpretations of various incarnations of WoL throughout the ages.

No I'm fairly confident they were all sundered with everyone else. That notwithstanding, doesn't mean they left some kind of method for themselves to follow or just Hydaelyn sent them forth to fix the post-sundered world. But the nature of this discussion alone just goes to show that missing pieces of the Ancient's history is what was Azem doing when the summons were done, how did Azem influence the post-sundered world, and when did Azem go over to Hydaelyn's side?

[YianKutku]

I would argue it's just part of the natural skill set of a primal, as part of their self-preservation. It just seems to depend on the personality of the Primal as to how much they feel a need to do it, with Primals like Alexander deeming themselves to be too dangerous to the natural state of the world to allow themselves to continue to exist, thus Alexander didn't temper ANYTHING.

Curiously, King Moggle Mog also seemed not to temper anyone, even his summoners. I caveat this because with Moogles, it's honestly difficult to tell.

But after the initial summoning and defeat, the Mogglesguard didn't receive any consequences other than being scolded by Kuplo Kopp, which made them angry enough to summon King Moggle Mog again. Notably even the Serpent representative who gives the quest for Thornmarch Extreme didn't say anything about the possibility of the Mogglesguard being tempered, but just that Kuplo's scolding had the opposite effect.

And yes, given the apparent contradiction in motives between the Goblin Illuminati and Alexander, I don't think Alexander tempered the Goblins either.

[Riastrad]

No I'm fairly confident they were all sundered with everyone else. That notwithstanding, doesn't mean they left some kind of method for themselves to follow or just Hydaelyn sent them forth to fix the post-sundered world. But the nature of this discussion alone just goes to show that missing pieces of the Ancient's history is what was Azem doing when the summons were done, how did Azem influence the post-sundered world, and when did Azem go over to Hydaelyn's side?

I would hazard to guess that Azem became Hydaelyn's chosen almost immediately after the fracture. Something of a final wish, a wanting almost, by Venat in their final moments before the summoning was carried out, made manifest by Hydaelyn.

I also have to ask. Was Venat (the T is silent right?) the Nhamaa to Azem's Azim? Without going into bad fanfiction of course, what could the possible connection be between that legend to the "real events" of the final days?

Hien: Aye. I would know more of the Oronir─of their creation, and of Father Azim.

Udutai: As you wish. Come, let us sit.

Udutai: Before we begin, tell me: what do you know of the Au Ra, and how they came to be?

[“In the days before men, Azim and Nhaama waged a bitter war…”]

Udutai: Yes, yes. A common tale, and one believed by many tribes.

Udutai: But what it does not mention is this: Azim and Nhaama were lovers.

Udutai: Oh, they fought in the beginning, as did their creations. That much is true. But when they saw how the Xaela and the Raen rose above their hatreds and joined hands in harmony, their hearts stirred, and the love their children shared became theirs as well.

Udutai: Alas, he was of the sun and she of the moon. Apart they must remain, lest day and night cease to be, and with them all creation.

Udutai: With sadness in their hearts they returned to the heavens─he to the day, she to the night, destined to walk before and after, never to meet.

Udutai: As time passed, Azim’s yearning for his beloved grew deeper still. Was there truly naught that could be done, he wondered. At last, he knew.

Udutai: “If the Father cannot be with the Mother, then he shall go amongst her children. Now and ever after.“

Udutai: So it was that Azim took a fragment of his being and with it fashioned an avatar. Clad in scale of midnight, he descended, and sought out the Xaela.

Udutai: Yea, he was the first Oronir. We are of his flesh and his blood. We are the children of Azim, and it is our duty to watch over and keep the Xaela safe.

Hien: …I confess, I did not expect the tale of your people’s beginnings to be quite so romantic.

Hien: Yet I must ask: if it is your duty to defend the Xaela, how can you go to war with them in the Naadam? Is that not a contradiction?

Udutai: If a father disciplines his son, does that mean there is no love in his heart? Xaela are not wont to kneel. They must be made to─only then will they heed reason.

Hien: I see… Such is the way of the Steppe.

Hien: Thank you, elder, for sharing with us your wisdom.

[Kesey]

I would hazard to guess that Azem became Hydaelyn's chosen almost immediately after the fracture. Something of a final wish, a wanting almost, by Venat in their final moments before the summoning was carried out, made manifest by Hydaelyn.

Yes, but did Azem choose to join her or did she temper him/her into service?

The answer is the difference between she is our strongest ally or she is a primal that needs to go like rest of them.

[Mansion]

when Zenos expressed an interest in Zodiark I predicted that he'd be merging with him eventually.

Because that worked out so well for him when he did the exact same thing with Shinryu... It's time the baddies understand that merging with primals isn't the best way to defeat the primal-slayer WoL.

Joke aside, I really wish we are led to believe this but then something more suprising happens (like Zenos killing Primals to make him our equal or something).

[Iscah]

There's a set of logs in Academia Adynar that describe the development of the Sound. And how it "moved" from one location to another, driving Creation Magic crazy as it went.

The fact that it was moving around suggest there is maybe a source that was emitting the Sound. What that source is, we just have to wait and find out in 6.0 but if lucky they may start revealing a glimps of it in 5.5/5.55

The moving part is also important since it means the source was not teleporting by physically moving. This would mean the source of the sound had to start at a specific area of the world and made its way to Amarot as its final stop.

Do you have the quote for that? Did it really say the sound was "moving" like a single source travelling from place to place, or was it spreading to more places over time?

But the Shakespeare references don't end there. The main theme is called "Tomorrow and Tomorrow" which is titled as such to recall the famous "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow" speech made by Macbeth, from the play Macbeth. What's key here is that Emet, much like Macbeth, believes they are invincible, destiny has chosen them rule and win, and can't conceive how they will fall. Macbeth's speech is the moment that he realizes that following the evil path of murder has lead him to a meaningless life, so does Emet realized in his final moments where he begs us to remember we once lived. Not to mention the concurring themes of good trimuphing over evil.

I'm not that good on Shakespeare references so I had to look that up.

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1533/1533-h/1533-h.htm

Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life’s but a walking shadow; a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

It doesn't really fit with the song to me, besides a loose similarity about life being ephemeral - but this is regretful and the song is more joyous, about living on in memory.

The Anyder

I don't see any reason to call them that as an organisation. Unless I'm misinterpreting, they use that term as a short form for the Anamnesis Anyder, which is odd anyway because there are at least two different locations in Amaurot with the suffix - the other being the Akadaemia which seems to be the base for the Convocation.

I hold to hope that whatever we don't know about Hydaelyn, Hydaelyn is still good, and heroic. She's been one of my favourite characters since the very beginning, I felt a lot of connection with her as a maternal figure since the very beginning.

I agree. It feels like every story that starts with a benevolent god-figure is guaranteed to have them turn out evil by the end, and sometimes it's just nice for them to actually be what they claim they are - or in Hydaelyn's case at this point, for her to retain her stated love for us even if she isn't exactly the goddess we were led to think she was.

The 8th fight in Eden has an extremely important message in it's lyrics. That merger was no coincidence when you consider the color of her hair changes depending on which form she was currently in. Shiva retains her silver hue. While Hydaelyn/Venat... Was a blonde.

I'm not sure why you're thinking Venat figures into the symbolism of the Eden fight - she's never talked about there. Ryne's form is just representing Hydaelyn's Light as opposed to Shiva's ice, perhaps with a nod back to her blonde appearance while she was Minfilia's vessel.

[Riastrad]

I'm not sure why you're thinking Venat figures into the symbolism of the Eden fight - she's never talked about there. Ryne's form is just representing Hydaelyn's Light as opposed to Shiva's ice, perhaps with a nod back to her blonde appearance while she was Minfilia's vessel.

Only due to Venat being Hydaelyn's heart. Shiva as a primal retained a portion of her physical likeness. Why wouldn't the same go for Venat as Hydaelyn? Nothing in this game is coincidental. SE has always been extremely careful when it comes to details.


Take the Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow reference for example. You posted it in regard to Kesey's post.

I'm not that good on Shakespeare references so I had to look that up.

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1533/1533-h/1533-h.htm

Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life’s but a walking shadow; a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

It doesn't really fit with the song to me, besides a loose similarity about life being ephemeral - but this is regretful and the song is more joyous, about living on in memory.

Authors of our fates
Orchestrate our fall from grace
Poorest players on the stage
Our defiance drives us straight to the edge
A reflection in the glass
Recollections of our past
Swift as darkness, cold as ash
Far beyond this dream of paradise lost

These lyrics, taken from the Shadowbringers theme along with the lyrics to Tomorrow and Tomorrow, are in sync with each another. He's right. Emet had a change of heart the moment he had made the Fourteenth's stone in secret. He wanted a better way forward. He only asked not to forget them and to learn from their mistakes. The "Swift as darkness, cold as ash" is about rash actions and their results.

Rock of ages, we cast the first stone
In our cages, we know not what we do

Indecision here at the crossroads
Recognition, tomorrow's come too soon

Follow blindly like lambs to slaughter
At the mercy of those who ply the sword

As our song wends dead underwater
We're forgotten for now and evermore

See? It all connects to each other. Every detail compliments the other.


Edited, Sorry Iscah. I had yet to finish the post.

[Iscah]

Only due to Venat being Hydaelyn's heart. Shiva as a primal retained a portion of her physical likeness. Why wouldn't the same go for Venat as Hydaelyn?

Because we're not seeing "Venat as Hydaelyn" in this portrayal. We're seeing Ryne as Hydaelyn, portraying a concept of the goddess either as we pictured it or more likely as she pictures it from what she's been told. She looks like Minfilia, the Oracle of Light she has already seen. At one point she makes the same pose as we see Hydaelyn in the mural stomping down on Zodiark.

Also, I don't think we have ever seen the original Shiva clearly enough to comment whether Ysayle-as-primal-Shiva resembles her at all, beyond that they both happen to be Elezen women. I don't think primal Shiva looks particularly like Ysayle anyway - certainly less than Eden Shiva looks like Ryne.

Nothing in this game is coincidental. SE has always been extremely careful when it comes to details.

Take the Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow reference for example. You posted some of it in regard to Kesy's post.

Authors of our fates
Orchestrate our fall from grace
Poorest players on the stage
Our defiance drives us straight to the edge
A reflection in the glass
Recollections of our past
Swift as darkness, cold as ash
Far beyond this dream of paradise lost

These lyrics, taken from the Shadowbringers theme, are in sync with another. He's right.

While that lyric does seem to be a reference, I was talking about the song titled "Tomorrow and Tomorrow".

And just because they're "careful of the details" isn't proof that Ryne is somehow taking on the appearance of Venat and not a certain blonde woman dressed in white who we (and she) can already recognise and associate with the element of Light.

[Veloran]

Do we have reason to think that Venat still resides in Hydaelyn? I don't think we've been given a lot of evidence that she doesn't.

Venat does say that she'll appear again in a new form. The implication is that she was the original soul of Minfilia.

There's reason to believe that ability to Temper might have been something the Convocation added on purpose - the world's woes were being caused by uncontrolled Creation magic, after all, so one way to combat the problem would be to create an entity that can impose his own control over individuals.

I don't really think that's accurate at all to the issue of the Sound and the Final Days. Creation magic running rampant was more of a symptom than a cause, and we have good reason to believe that Zodiark's tempering wasn't some intentional inclusion to restrict creation magic, as evidenced by the Anyder using creation magic to summon Hydaelyn.

I don't see any reason to call them that as an organisation. Unless I'm misinterpreting, they use that term as a short form for the Anamnesis Anyder, which is odd anyway because there are at least two different locations in Amaurot with the suffix - the other being the Akadaemia which seems to be the base for the Convocation.

I'm vaguely of the belief that the Akadaemia and the Anamnesis are really just two branches of the college, and since they were the ones that summoned Hydaelyn calling them the Anyder is about as good as anything else.