Nature of the Sound

[Kesey]

We have no evidence Hythlodaeus was correct. So far as we're aware he had no direct connection to the Anyder, so his statement may simply be what he (or Emet) believed.

Hythlodaeus corroborates the evidence found in the Anyder, pertaining specifically to the summoning of Hydaelyn. I find it hard to contradict a direct recording of the Ancients (Anyder) which follows in the wake of a self-aware reproduction of Hythlodaeus that speaks with the knowledge of having seen all the events (lets also not forget that he's on Emet's side!).

[Vyrerus]

No, the impetus for Hydaelyn's creation was that summoning Zodiark doesn't actually stop the Final Days, it just delays it. So they need to summon Hydaelyn to create a permanent solution. You hear this from the recording of the Ancients that summon Hydaelyn at the end of Anamnesis Anyder.

What's not directly clear here is what is Zodiark doing that just causes The Sound and the Final Days to come back around after an extended period of time.

The thing is, even though that's what they say in the recording, it's not a fact. It's just what they believe. They were afraid that Zodiark wasn't a permanent solution, because they were either aware that the cause of the Final Days hadn't actually been rooted out, i.e. Zodiark is symptomatic treatment, or that Zodiark's miracles would just lead back to retriggering the Final Days again... somehow.

Really, that recording just proves the Hydaelyn dissenters to be vainglorious rebels, with an idea that was ultimately no better than what the Convocation had in mind, except on the matter of protecting the new life. Which we aren't given much detail about. It'd be one thing to protect the new life if it were freshly sprouted sentient life, life aware of itself. It'd be another if they were asking every other Amaurotine in existence to trade the possibility of getting their loved ones back for what amounts to cattle(at the time).

There's still many factors we don't know, too. Like if the Sundering was intentional or not. I assume that it wasn't, but if it was the only way for Hydaelyn to protect the new life, then that means that the Dissenters essentially risked the existence of everyone and everything. I think it wasn't intentional, but that proves that the dissenters really didn't know what they were doing, since their checks and balances for Zodiark wound up completely altering and then having dominion over the star(and all its pieces). Not too mention, it was an inherently violent course of action.

Hydaelyn has some 'splainin to do!

[EirolOcarrol]

I hold to hope that whatever we don't know about Hydaelyn, Hydaelyn is still good, and heroic. She's been one of my favourite characters since the very beginning, I felt a lot of connection with her as a maternal figure since the very beginning.

I was honestly absolutely crushed by the revelation that she was not only the first, before Zodiark, but that she and Zodiark were both Primals, the thing we've been fighting the whole time. Or at least most of the time. My friends reassured me about her that this didn't change anything, as a big fan of Hydaelyn. And that her being a Primal simply means we're supposed to now have a different outlook on Primals, and not a negative outlook on Hydaelyn, our caretaker.

It seems that my friend group's reassurances aren't necessarily shared by the wider community, though. And the revelations of Shadowbringers has done exactly what I feared. Everyone is turning on and suspecting Hydaelyn of being evil. I'm going to be feel so relieved if Hydaelyn is vindicated in 6.0 or "Forspoken", Shadowbringers has been painful as a fan of Crystal mommy. A lot of people think she's evil now.

It would be nice to have more explanations, soon. I'm sure that's what the next expansion is for. And I really hope we have the chance to talk with her again. We haven't really seen her at all since Word of the Mother.
I miss crystal mommy. She was such a comforting presence and support in 1.0 and 2.0. I always felt a Maternal Goddess figure like her really appealing. And Answers still makes me tear up years later.

[Kesey]

The thing is, even though that's what they say in the recording, it's not a fact. It's just what they believe. They were afraid that Zodiark wasn't a permanent solution, because they were either aware that the cause of the Final Days hadn't actually been rooted out, i.e. Zodiark is symptomatic treatment, or that Zodiark's miracles would just lead back to retriggering the Final Days again... somehow.

Really, that recording just proves the Hydaelyn dissenters to be vainglorious rebels, with an idea that was ultimately no better than what the Convocation had in mind, except on the matter of protecting the new life. Which we aren't given much detail about. It'd be one thing to protect the new life if it were freshly sprouted sentient life, life aware of itself. It'd be another if they were asking every other Amaurotine in existence to trade the possibility of getting their loved ones back for what amounts to cattle(at the time).

There's still many factors we don't know, too. Like if the Sundering was intentional or not. I assume that it wasn't, but if it was the only way for Hydaelyn to protect the new life, then that means that the Dissenters essentially risked the existence of everyone and everything. I think it wasn't intentional, but that proves that the dissenters really didn't know what they were doing, since their checks and balances for Zodiark wound up completely altering and then having dominion over the star(and all its pieces). Not too mention, it was an inherently violent course of action.

Hydaelyn has some 'splainin to do!

I find it very hard to believe Venat and the other Hydaelyn summoners to be vainglorious when they all sacrificed their lives to summon Hydaelyn. Furthermore, they did it save the world from the Final Days and the Sound because Zodiark only delayed the coming of the Final Days and didn't stop it. Hydaelyn was designed be a permeant solution. Lastly, Hythlodaeus corroborates their story when we meet him at the end of 5.0.

I agree there are unanswered questions and that Hydaelyn could answer those questions, but I think the reason to not trust Hydaelyn stems from the fact she is a primal and there is a high probability that Hydaelyn's Blessing is just her way of tempering the WOL.

[EdwinLi]

---

Ya this is one information I think a lot of people seem to not notice or ignore. Amaurot was not a species but a Civilization that was the most dominant during the time of the Original World before the Sundering.

We have only seen the view point of people who have lived within the walls of Amaurot and in their view it was a Utopia that made everyone equal by taking away everything that made everyone not equal and leaving major decisions to the Convocation of Fourteen. Certain dialogues have suggested there are people and other civilizations who did not take part in the traditions of Amaurot thus are ridiculed for being different and are much smaller in influence. To the eyes of those who live in Amaurot's society, they are seen as lesser beings.

Not to mention not everyone who lived outside of Amaurot could get in. They had to follow strict rules and procedures before they were allowed to live within the city walls. There is also how Azem had to constantly explore the world and face threats directly with the help of the local population and allies he/she made during his/her time which also suggest the places outside of Amaurot were still quite dangerous and people had to fight for their life sometimes against dangers. The Ascians did not lie as those who lived in Amaurot were living their own ideal Utopia free from the dangers from outside the city and inequality of other people's ideals but they also saw people who lived outside of Amaurot as lesser beings just for being different and not following Amaurot's traditions. Something that made Azem disliked by majority of the Convocation except for Emet-Selch who liked Azem's ability to some how bond with others despite what his/her personality maybe, which lead to their eventual friendship, and for willingly helping people, no matter his/her reasons, instead of waiting around for something to be "approved" on paper.

[Veloran]

Yes, and after they rejoined all life, they intend to sacrifice the non-Amaurotine life to Zodiark to bring back the rest of the Amaurotines. Hence my assertion that the Amaurotines see non-Amaurotine life as being inferior and lesser, since they believe it to be a fair trade to bring the other 3/4 of their population back.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, we have no idea what sort of life they intended to sacrifice.

According to Hythlodaeus, Azem preferred to work with the locals to solve whatever problems they face, rather than call on the Convocation for assistance.

That was literally Azem's job description. The Convocation preferred to adopt a non-interventional posture in regards to the affairs of other cultures, but Azem's seat was specifically made so that Amaurot had a representative to the wider world.

Emet-Selch even tries to poison the rhetorical well by pre-emptively saying Hydaelyn's own hypothetical account of her summoning will be different and thus false,

But he was completely correct? At the point Emet makes that claim Hydaelyn had already given her account of how she came into being, and it's false.

but Hythlodaeus's account is different, despite his being a creation of Emet-Selch.

Was it really? All Hythlodaeus gives is a reason why they would fear Zodiark and seek to bind him.

to find out what went wrong and caused the Flood of Light.

What went wrong? But the flood is precisely what they needed to have happen for the rejoining, the only difference is the last domino was intended to be Cylva.

then given what we're told (many times) about Emet-Selch's soul-sight, he should have recognized Mitron in there.

Given that Y'shtola can't recognize WoL's aether after only absorbing the light of two wardens, I'm a little doubtful Emet would have been able to recognize Mitron's inside the creature that caused the Flood itself. I know his is far more advanced, but so is the scale of light in Eden, which was a fully transformed Sin Eater.

To the eyes of those who live in Amaurot's society, they are seen as lesser beings.

I'm not really sure where this idea comes from? The only times I recall the Amaurotines discussing other cultures, it's in the vein of them being friends and equals who should have their own autonomy, and that if Amaurot should set out to help them it should be for the purposes of devising a means to forestall such disasters in the future that it might be shared with the rest of the world. It's kind of a leap in logic to hear "we should not intercede on others' behalf" and read that as "others are lesser beings".

[Vyrerus]

I find it very hard to believe Venat and the other Hydaelyn summoners to be vainglorious when they all sacrificed their lives to summon Hydaelyn. Furthermore, they did it save the world from the Final Days and the Sound because Zodiark only delayed the coming of the Final Days and didn't stop it. Hydaelyn was designed be a permeant solution. Lastly, Hythlodaeus corroborates their story when we meet him at the end of 5.0.

I agree there are unanswered questions and that Hydaelyn could answer those questions, but I think the reason to not trust Hydaelyn stems from the fact she is a primal and there is a high probability that Hydaelyn's Blessing is just her way of tempering the WOL.

Oh, but they were vainglorious. They went against the established leadership and the entire rest of their society, so strong was their belief that what they were doing would work, and like I said, it was bad either way. Until shown explicitly otherwise, we nor they actually know if Zodiark would have actually failed at forestalling The Sound or the Final Days. That was an assumption and fear on their part. They are much like the Scions in thinking that they know what's best for everyone, even belittling heads of state on the reg.

Hydaelyn hastened the destruction of their own society and people. In a way, they just created a different version of the Final Days by inciting civil war. Also it's clear that not every one of the dissenters sacrificed their lives to make Hydaelyn. The one that remarks he will miss Venat after she becomes the heart proves as much.

[Rosenstrauch]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Twelve turned out to be the twelve followers who were with Venat when she sacrificed herself to summon Hydaelyn. I also wouldn't be too surprised to find out that they—like Elidibus, Emet-Selch, and Lahabrea—managed to avoid being sundered. The period between the world being sundered and the first rejoining is apparently called the Age of the Gods, after all, and it would make some degree of sense to call the Twelve gods given the disparity between a 1/14th person on the Source and an unsundered ancient.

Another thing to note about that era, apparently, is that humanity was sent back to the Stone Age in terms of technology and magic development. They only began to make up for lost time with the First Astral Era leading into the Second Umbral Era, respectively. I would actually like to know the source of this information, as I found it on one of the wikis: Specifically, this timeline here. I feel like it vindicates my hypothesizing that Hydaelyn sundering the world necessarily lead to global societal collapse and so on.

tl;dr on that note: Hydaelyn may not be evil, but I'm almost certain she screwed up on a level that's... very hard to put into words. If she's at all self-aware, she probably has a very big guilt complex over it.

[LineageRazor]

It seems that my friend group's reassurances aren't necessarily shared by the wider community, though. And the revelations of Shadowbringers has done exactly what I feared. Everyone is turning on and suspecting Hydaelyn of being evil. I'm going to be feel so relieved if Hydaelyn is vindicated in 6.0 or "Forspoken", Shadowbringers has been painful as a fan of Crystal mommy. A lot of people think she's evil now.

If it's any consolation, Hydaelyn has had folks suspecting her of villainy LONG before this reveal - and even folks who felt strongly that even if her acts ARE entirely benevolent, she's got to go. The very fact that she's a more powerful being is reason enough to tear her down. In the eyes of some, humankind can never be safe, never be secure, as long as such beings exist, whatever their acts, whatever their intentions. Xenophobia, to put it plainly.

The revelation that she's a Primal was a hard blow, to be sure, though it seems quite likely that she's more along the lines of Shiva - a Primal with a real person inside, guiding her actions. This puts her on a different level than other Primals - not a better level, or worse, but it leaves hope that she may genuinely be the benevolent being she was presented as, and not merely a slave to the "programming" she was originally created with.

Personally, I believe she is being presented as someone who is doing the best that she can with the cards she was dealt, who honestly wishes the best for all but who does not have the power to save everyone. She was forced to make some very difficult decisions, with horrific consequences no matter what she chose to do. If she was knowingly responsible for the Sundering, if she knew the consequences before she chose to do it, it was only because not causing the Sundering would have had even worse consequences (most likely, death of the star and all life on it vs. death of the Ancients as a people in exchange for life to live on in some form at all).

I don't think that the writers have any intention on giving up on the idea of presenting Hydaelyn as a good and heroic figure - but she is not, and never has been all-powerful. There's only so much she can do. The folks who are hoping for a Shin Megami Tenshi-esque ending where both the "good" and "bad" gods are terrible people and the only solution is to be rid of them all - I think they're going to be left out in the cold.

[Veloran]

The revelation that she's a Primal was a hard blow, to be sure, though it seems quite likely that she's more along the lines of Shiva - a Primal with a real person inside, guiding her actions. This puts her on a different level than other Primals - not a better level, or worse, but it leaves hope that she may genuinely be the benevolent being she was presented as, and not merely a slave to the "programming" she was originally created with.

Do we even have reason to think Venat still resides in Hydaelyn? Moreover why should we think she isn't tempered, when Elidibus was?