Nature of the Sound

[Kesey]

The thing is, even though that's what they say in the recording, it's not a fact. It's just what they believe. They were afraid that Zodiark wasn't a permanent solution, because they were either aware that the cause of the Final Days hadn't actually been rooted out, i.e. Zodiark is symptomatic treatment, or that Zodiark's miracles would just lead back to retriggering the Final Days again... somehow.

Really, that recording just proves the Hydaelyn dissenters to be vainglorious rebels, with an idea that was ultimately no better than what the Convocation had in mind, except on the matter of protecting the new life. Which we aren't given much detail about. It'd be one thing to protect the new life if it were freshly sprouted sentient life, life aware of itself. It'd be another if they were asking every other Amaurotine in existence to trade the possibility of getting their loved ones back for what amounts to cattle(at the time).

There's still many factors we don't know, too. Like if the Sundering was intentional or not. I assume that it wasn't, but if it was the only way for Hydaelyn to protect the new life, then that means that the Dissenters essentially risked the existence of everyone and everything. I think it wasn't intentional, but that proves that the dissenters really didn't know what they were doing, since their checks and balances for Zodiark wound up completely altering and then having dominion over the star(and all its pieces). Not too mention, it was an inherently violent course of action.

Hydaelyn has some 'splainin to do!

I find it very hard to believe Venat and the other Hydaelyn summoners to be vainglorious when they all sacrificed their lives to summon Hydaelyn. Furthermore, they did it save the world from the Final Days and the Sound because Zodiark only delayed the coming of the Final Days and didn't stop it. Hydaelyn was designed be a permeant solution. Lastly, Hythlodaeus corroborates their story when we meet him at the end of 5.0.

I agree there are unanswered questions and that Hydaelyn could answer those questions, but I think the reason to not trust Hydaelyn stems from the fact she is a primal and there is a high probability that Hydaelyn's Blessing is just her way of tempering the WOL.

[Vyrerus]

I find it very hard to believe Venat and the other Hydaelyn summoners to be vainglorious when they all sacrificed their lives to summon Hydaelyn. Furthermore, they did it save the world from the Final Days and the Sound because Zodiark only delayed the coming of the Final Days and didn't stop it. Hydaelyn was designed be a permeant solution. Lastly, Hythlodaeus corroborates their story when we meet him at the end of 5.0.

I agree there are unanswered questions and that Hydaelyn could answer those questions, but I think the reason to not trust Hydaelyn stems from the fact she is a primal and there is a high probability that Hydaelyn's Blessing is just her way of tempering the WOL.

Oh, but they were vainglorious. They went against the established leadership and the entire rest of their society, so strong was their belief that what they were doing would work, and like I said, it was bad either way. Until shown explicitly otherwise, we nor they actually know if Zodiark would have actually failed at forestalling The Sound or the Final Days. That was an assumption and fear on their part. They are much like the Scions in thinking that they know what's best for everyone, even belittling heads of state on the reg.

Hydaelyn hastened the destruction of their own society and people. In a way, they just created a different version of the Final Days by inciting civil war. Also it's clear that not every one of the dissenters sacrificed their lives to make Hydaelyn. The one that remarks he will miss Venat after she becomes the heart proves as much.

[Kesey]

Oh, but they were vainglorious. They went against the established leadership and the entire rest of their society, so strong was their belief that what they were doing would work, and like I said, it was bad either way. Until shown explicitly otherwise, we nor they actually know if Zodiark would have actually failed at forestalling The Sound or the Final Days. That was an assumption and fear on their part. They are much like the Scions in thinking that they know what's best for everyone, even belittling heads of state on the reg.

Hydaelyn hastened the destruction of their own society and people. In a way, they just created a different version of the Final Days by inciting civil war. Also it's clear that not every one of the dissenters sacrificed their lives to make Hydaelyn. The one that remarks he will miss Venat after she becomes the heart proves as much.

Unless what Venat and her followers said was true and were rebuffed by a tempered to Zodiark Convocation. Remember the recording mentions that the Convocation refuses to discuss that Zodiark just forestalled their doom and the Amauroteans were a society or debate and discussion. Also note that the conversation also implies it takes place post-Zodiark's summon, so they had evidence it didn't work too.

Venat and her followers were backed into a corner. They couldn't participate in the highest values of their society. They were not vainglorious. They were desperate because of the tempered followers of Zodiark. Futhermore, Venat and company's story is affirmed by Hythlodaes and the evidence of tempering was shared by Emet.

[Veloran]

Also note that the conversation also implies it takes place post-Zodiark's summon, so they had evidence it didn't work too.

We have no idea what their reasoning was.

Dude, they planned to kill everyone. All the life that currently exists means absolutely nothing to them.

I was referring to pre-Sundering and what life they intended to sacrifice. Furthermore saying that all life means nothing to them isn't really accurate because the entire point of the rejoining is to rejoin all currently existing life back into it's pre-broken forms.

I agree with this theory 100%. This also explains how Azem, who isn't present for the summoning of Hydaelyn and Zodiark, can post-sunder rejoin this group and rebuild the world. Lets not forget that Nald'thal are twins who count as one god, which make "the 12" actually 13--the 12 Ancients who followed Venat and Azem.

The theory doesn't work because Azem wasn't a follower of Hydaelyn and didn't support her summoning. And given that WoL is a fractured soul, Azem was either sundered along with the rest of the world or somehow survived only to be sundered at a later date. If anything it's most likely the Twelve are just half-recollections of the Convocation, or even simply all interpretations of various incarnations of WoL throughout the ages.

[Kesey]

The theory doesn't work because Azem wasn't a follower of Hydaelyn and didn't support her summoning. And given that WoL is a fractured soul, Azem was either sundered along with the rest of the world or somehow survived only to be sundered at a later date. If anything it's most likely the Twelve are just half-recollections of the Convocation, or even simply all interpretations of various incarnations of WoL throughout the ages.

No I'm fairly confident they were all sundered with everyone else. That notwithstanding, doesn't mean they left some kind of method for themselves to follow or just Hydaelyn sent them forth to fix the post-sundered world. But the nature of this discussion alone just goes to show that missing pieces of the Ancient's history is what was Azem doing when the summons were done, how did Azem influence the post-sundered world, and when did Azem go over to Hydaelyn's side?

[Riastrad]

No I'm fairly confident they were all sundered with everyone else. That notwithstanding, doesn't mean they left some kind of method for themselves to follow or just Hydaelyn sent them forth to fix the post-sundered world. But the nature of this discussion alone just goes to show that missing pieces of the Ancient's history is what was Azem doing when the summons were done, how did Azem influence the post-sundered world, and when did Azem go over to Hydaelyn's side?

I would hazard to guess that Azem became Hydaelyn's chosen almost immediately after the fracture. Something of a final wish, a wanting almost, by Venat in their final moments before the summoning was carried out, made manifest by Hydaelyn.

I also have to ask. Was Venat (the T is silent right?) the Nhamaa to Azem's Azim? Without going into bad fanfiction of course, what could the possible connection be between that legend to the "real events" of the final days?

Hien: Aye. I would know more of the Oronir─of their creation, and of Father Azim.

Udutai: As you wish. Come, let us sit.

Udutai: Before we begin, tell me: what do you know of the Au Ra, and how they came to be?

[“In the days before men, Azim and Nhaama waged a bitter war…”]

Udutai: Yes, yes. A common tale, and one believed by many tribes.

Udutai: But what it does not mention is this: Azim and Nhaama were lovers.

Udutai: Oh, they fought in the beginning, as did their creations. That much is true. But when they saw how the Xaela and the Raen rose above their hatreds and joined hands in harmony, their hearts stirred, and the love their children shared became theirs as well.

Udutai: Alas, he was of the sun and she of the moon. Apart they must remain, lest day and night cease to be, and with them all creation.

Udutai: With sadness in their hearts they returned to the heavens─he to the day, she to the night, destined to walk before and after, never to meet.

Udutai: As time passed, Azim’s yearning for his beloved grew deeper still. Was there truly naught that could be done, he wondered. At last, he knew.

Udutai: “If the Father cannot be with the Mother, then he shall go amongst her children. Now and ever after.“

Udutai: So it was that Azim took a fragment of his being and with it fashioned an avatar. Clad in scale of midnight, he descended, and sought out the Xaela.

Udutai: Yea, he was the first Oronir. We are of his flesh and his blood. We are the children of Azim, and it is our duty to watch over and keep the Xaela safe.

Hien: …I confess, I did not expect the tale of your people’s beginnings to be quite so romantic.

Hien: Yet I must ask: if it is your duty to defend the Xaela, how can you go to war with them in the Naadam? Is that not a contradiction?

Udutai: If a father disciplines his son, does that mean there is no love in his heart? Xaela are not wont to kneel. They must be made to─only then will they heed reason.

Hien: I see… Such is the way of the Steppe.

Hien: Thank you, elder, for sharing with us your wisdom.

[Kesey]

I would hazard to guess that Azem became Hydaelyn's chosen almost immediately after the fracture. Something of a final wish, a wanting almost, by Venat in their final moments before the summoning was carried out, made manifest by Hydaelyn.

Yes, but did Azem choose to join her or did she temper him/her into service?

The answer is the difference between she is our strongest ally or she is a primal that needs to go like rest of them.