Nature of the Sound

[YianKutku]

1/4th of the Amaurotines were never sacrificed to Zodiark to begin with, and like most of the Convocation members must exist as sundered beings in the current sharded world. We can say then that the Ascians are invested in rejoining everything's souls at least for this 1/4th of their people as well as to return the sacrificed.

In other words, they see the "life" that is not the 1/4 of their people to be lesser beings. Which tracks with what Emet-Selch keeps ranting about, and which the short stories have illustrated that Azem deeply disagrees with.

The Anyder actually say nothing about any of this when discussing their motivations for summoning Hydaelyn amongst themselves. They say they intend to summon Hydaelyn because the summoning of Zodiark didn't bring a permanent solution to ending the threat of the Sound. We don't know what that entails, why they believed this or what if anything they even knew of the Sound, but they don't really say anything about the Convocation's intent to sacrifice proliferated life being relevant to their plans.

The motivation of the "dissenters" who summoned Hydaelyn was also mentioned by Hythlodaeus in 5.0. In Anyder in 5.2, we are given another motivation, that Zodiark cannot "forestall the doom" of the Ancients. I strongly believe these motivations are entirely compatible; specifically, I read the recordings in Anyder as the dissenters being aware that if the rest of the Amaurotines continued to pay Zodiark's price for every single miracle, it would lead to the end of the Ancients just as much as the End of Days threatened to.

As far as I know, Hythlodaeus's commentary on Hydaelyn's summoners has not been explicitly contradicted.

This is what he says, we have no reason to believe he's correct. It's true that the Unsundered considered the sundered Ascians as being expendable, because from their perspective they can simply be reraised once again at a later date, but as to his belief that Emet knew his situation, Emet himself says that he believes both of them were slain and that he is the only Ascian on the First.

Which assumes that Emet-Selch is astonishingly oblivious and uncaring about where Mitron and Loghrif had gone, if he didn't check out the Flood of Light in the first place to find Eden, and, considering his much-vaunted soul-sight, recognized Mitron's soul in there.

[Veloran]

In other words, they see the "life" that is not the 1/4 of their people to be lesser beings.

No, they see all sundered life as being lesser, because it is. They intend to rejoin all life including that 1/4th of their people.

and which the short stories have illustrated that Azem deeply disagrees with.

How have the short stories shown that in the slightest? Not the stories, but while we know Azem didn't join either the Convocation or the Anyder, but we don't really know why.

The motivation of the "dissenters" who summoned Hydaelyn was also mentioned by Hythlodaeus in 5.0.

We have no evidence Hythlodaeus was correct. So far as we're aware he had no direct connection to the Anyder, so his statement may simply be what he (or Emet) believed.

that Zodiark cannot "forestall the doom" of the Ancients.

They say that as immutable as the laws of reality Zodiark wove may seem, they wouldn't serve to forestall their doom, and they their fate would be the same. And Venat says that the Convocation hasn't offered a permanent solution. This seems to me to heavily imply that the issue the Anyder are seeking to rectify with the summoning of Hydaelyn is the selfsame one Zodiark was intended to solve, not merely a similar doom of their people or an end to them either way. After all, Hydaelyn effectively did that herself.

Which assumes that Emet-Selch is astonishingly oblivious and uncaring about where Mitron and Loghrif had gone, if he didn't check out the Flood of Light in the first place to find Eden, and, considering his much-vaunted soul-sight, recognized Mitron's soul in there.

I'm not really sure why you think he should have set out to scour the vast wasteland permeated with energy the Ascians are weak to in order to search for some trace that the two of them hadn't died when he had every reason to believe they had.

Why even do that? It'd be all the same if the First was rejoined and he simply reraised their rejoined souls on the Source anyway.

[YianKutku]

No, they see all sundered life as being lesser, because it is. They intend to rejoin all life including that 1/4th of their people.


How have the short stories shown that in the slightest? Not the stories, but while we know Azem didn't join either the Convocation or the Anyder, but we don't really know why.


We have no evidence Hythlodaeus was correct. So far as we're aware he had no direct connection to the Anyder, so his statement may simply be what he (or Emet) believed.


They say that as immutable as the laws of reality Zodiark wove may seem, they wouldn't serve to forestall their doom, and they their fate would be the same. And Venat says that the Convocation hasn't offered a permanent solution. This seems to me to heavily imply that the issue the Anyder are seeking to rectify with the summoning of Hydaelyn is the selfsame one Zodiark was intended to solve, not merely a similar doom of their people or an end to them either way. After all, Hydaelyn effectively did that herself.


I'm not really sure why you think he should have set out to scour the vast wasteland permeated with energy the Ascians are weak to in order to search for some trace that the two of them hadn't died when he had every reason to believe they had.

Why even do that? It'd be all the same if the First was rejoined and he simply reraised their rejoined souls on the Source anyway.

Yes, and after they rejoined all life, they intend to sacrifice the non-Amaurotine life to Zodiark to bring back the rest of the Amaurotines. Hence my assertion that the Amaurotines see non-Amaurotine life as being inferior and lesser, since they believe it to be a fair trade to bring the other 3/4 of their population back.

My point about Azem's characterization in the short stories, as well as the conversation with Hythlodaeus in 5.3, is that they consider the non-Amaurotine population of the Ancient world to be just as worthy, unlike the Convocation, who reportedly see them as abstract populations rather than people. According to Hythlodaeus, Azem preferred to work with the locals to solve whatever problems they face, rather than call on the Convocation for assistance. This is in contrast to Emet-Selch, who sees us as a shard of Azem working with the "local" soul shards, and goes ballistic with ranting about how Nobody Is Worthy.

We have no evidence that Hythlodaeus is incorrect, and indeed I had been convinced by people on this forum that Hythlodaeus does know what he's talking about, back when we were discussing revelations from 5.0. He seems to know things that Emet-Selch would not have let him know (or impart the knowledge of) if Emet-Selch had been paying attention, like Hythlodaeus's account of the summoning of Hydaelyn, contradicting Emet-Selch's own account that Hydaelyn was summoned due entirely to "fear" of Zodiark's "magnificence" (Emet-Selch's words). Emet-Selch even tries to poison the rhetorical well by pre-emptively saying Hydaelyn's own hypothetical account of her summoning will be different and thus false, but Hythlodaeus's account is different, despite his being a creation of Emet-Selch.

Notably Emet-Selch also didn't mention anything about the Anyder group's stated motivations, which contradict what he said about the summoning of Hydaelyn, but does not contradict Hythlodaeus's version. As mentioned, I think it adds to Hythlodaeus's version by giving additional context that builds upon it in a natural way.

I didn't say Emet-Selch should have scoured the Empty to look for Mitron and Loghrif. I said he should have scoured the Empty to find Eden, meaning that he should have practiced due diligence to find out what went wrong and caused the Flood of Light. And if Emet-Selch had laid eyes upon Eden, then given what we're told (many times) about Emet-Selch's soul-sight, he should have recognized Mitron in there. We know he won't be "blinded" by the Light or such, because he also instantly recognized Ryne's nature.

[EdwinLi]

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Ya this is one information I think a lot of people seem to not notice or ignore. Amaurot was not a species but a Civilization that was the most dominant during the time of the Original World before the Sundering.

We have only seen the view point of people who have lived within the walls of Amaurot and in their view it was a Utopia that made everyone equal by taking away everything that made everyone not equal and leaving major decisions to the Convocation of Fourteen. Certain dialogues have suggested there are people and other civilizations who did not take part in the traditions of Amaurot thus are ridiculed for being different and are much smaller in influence. To the eyes of those who live in Amaurot's society, they are seen as lesser beings.

Not to mention not everyone who lived outside of Amaurot could get in. They had to follow strict rules and procedures before they were allowed to live within the city walls. There is also how Azem had to constantly explore the world and face threats directly with the help of the local population and allies he/she made during his/her time which also suggest the places outside of Amaurot were still quite dangerous and people had to fight for their life sometimes against dangers. The Ascians did not lie as those who lived in Amaurot were living their own ideal Utopia free from the dangers from outside the city and inequality of other people's ideals but they also saw people who lived outside of Amaurot as lesser beings just for being different and not following Amaurot's traditions. Something that made Azem disliked by majority of the Convocation except for Emet-Selch who liked Azem's ability to some how bond with others despite what his/her personality maybe, which lead to their eventual friendship, and for willingly helping people, no matter his/her reasons, instead of waiting around for something to be "approved" on paper.

[Veloran]

Yes, and after they rejoined all life, they intend to sacrifice the non-Amaurotine life to Zodiark to bring back the rest of the Amaurotines. Hence my assertion that the Amaurotines see non-Amaurotine life as being inferior and lesser, since they believe it to be a fair trade to bring the other 3/4 of their population back.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, we have no idea what sort of life they intended to sacrifice.

According to Hythlodaeus, Azem preferred to work with the locals to solve whatever problems they face, rather than call on the Convocation for assistance.

That was literally Azem's job description. The Convocation preferred to adopt a non-interventional posture in regards to the affairs of other cultures, but Azem's seat was specifically made so that Amaurot had a representative to the wider world.

Emet-Selch even tries to poison the rhetorical well by pre-emptively saying Hydaelyn's own hypothetical account of her summoning will be different and thus false,

But he was completely correct? At the point Emet makes that claim Hydaelyn had already given her account of how she came into being, and it's false.

but Hythlodaeus's account is different, despite his being a creation of Emet-Selch.

Was it really? All Hythlodaeus gives is a reason why they would fear Zodiark and seek to bind him.

to find out what went wrong and caused the Flood of Light.

What went wrong? But the flood is precisely what they needed to have happen for the rejoining, the only difference is the last domino was intended to be Cylva.

then given what we're told (many times) about Emet-Selch's soul-sight, he should have recognized Mitron in there.

Given that Y'shtola can't recognize WoL's aether after only absorbing the light of two wardens, I'm a little doubtful Emet would have been able to recognize Mitron's inside the creature that caused the Flood itself. I know his is far more advanced, but so is the scale of light in Eden, which was a fully transformed Sin Eater.

To the eyes of those who live in Amaurot's society, they are seen as lesser beings.

I'm not really sure where this idea comes from? The only times I recall the Amaurotines discussing other cultures, it's in the vein of them being friends and equals who should have their own autonomy, and that if Amaurot should set out to help them it should be for the purposes of devising a means to forestall such disasters in the future that it might be shared with the rest of the world. It's kind of a leap in logic to hear "we should not intercede on others' behalf" and read that as "others are lesser beings".

[Kesey]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, we have no idea what sort of life they intended to sacrifice.

Dude, they planned to kill everyone. All the life that currently exists means absolutely nothing to them.

[Kesey]

We have no evidence Hythlodaeus was correct. So far as we're aware he had no direct connection to the Anyder, so his statement may simply be what he (or Emet) believed.

Hythlodaeus corroborates the evidence found in the Anyder, pertaining specifically to the summoning of Hydaelyn. I find it hard to contradict a direct recording of the Ancients (Anyder) which follows in the wake of a self-aware reproduction of Hythlodaeus that speaks with the knowledge of having seen all the events (lets also not forget that he's on Emet's side!).