Nature of the Sound

[Veloran]

Furthermore, I'm having a really hard time tracking the support this thread and others give to those Ascians who have absent mindedly neglected to tell us what actually caused the sound, because those guys are liars. They don't want us to know because they caused it.

They haven't told us for one of two reasons. First, because it's not time for us to know yet narratively. Or two, because they themselves don't really know, which is why they had to will a god into existence to brute-force an end to the problem.

They weren't the benevolent civilization that they have projected to us, because it they were so great how did they make the leap from superior enlightenment to we're gonna cannibalize 13 worlds and the source to bring it all back? A superior benevolent society knows their time is up and doesn't claw it back from the brink of nothingness.

I don't really see how benevolence and submission to fate are traits that are supposed to go hand-in-hand. To your earlier point the Ascians view sharded life as lesser beings because they quite literally are lesser broken forms of their prior existence, and that through the rejoining they're in fact saving everyone and returning them to what they once were.

The Eden story even highlighted this: Emet-Selch (or Elidibus, were he so inclined) could have stopped the Flood of Light, if he had saved Mitron early on by de-Edenifying him. Instead, the Ascians just shrugged and went "meh, we can raise another shard of Mitron, forget about that one".

Emet seemed to believe that Mitron and Loghrif were dead. Even if they were aware that Mitron had in fact become Eden, it's debatable as to whether it would have either been possible, or desirable in terms of their plans, to try restoring him.

He was a primal and everything we know of primals shows they are of one mind and one drive.

This is probably not accurate? Elidibus' drive seems to be a trait of his character far moreso than his mantling of the WoL primal. It's not like Ysayle was driven by Shiva's will.

[YianKutku]

I don't really see how benevolence and submission to fate are traits that are supposed to go hand-in-hand. To your earlier point the Ascians view sharded life as lesser beings because they quite literally are lesser broken forms of their prior existence, and that through the rejoining they're in fact saving everyone and returning them to what they once were.

Again, the point of the Rejoining is not to get everyone presently on the shards to become Unsundered again.

The point of the Rejoining is to get the worlds to be Unsundered, so they can sacrifice it again to bring back the people they already lost by being sacrificed to Zodiark. The only people they want to "save" are those who are already gone via Zodiark; everyone else, including the souls currently alive, are merely fodder to bring them back.

This was the entire impetus for the summoning of Hydaelyn, because the dissenters went "no, this is not acceptable, we cannot cling onto our civilization at the cost of everything else".

Emet seemed to believe that Mitron and Loghrif were dead. Even if they were aware that Mitron had in fact become Eden, it's debatable as to whether it would have either been possible, or desirable in terms of their plans, to try restoring him.

Loghrif was dead, but according to Mitron (and corroborated by every interaction with the Ascians in FFXIV prior), this is a minor setback, since the particular Convocation soul will eventually be reincarnated.

But Emet-Selch (named specifically by Mitron, but again I suspect Elidibus would also be eligible) didn't even bother, because doing so would mess with the one-track plan he had for Rejoining the First through Light.

Ryne: Emet-Selch -- couldn't he have saved you?

Mitron: Perhaps he could have, if such had been his wish. Far easier, however, to simply find another piece of my fractured soul to replace me. From his perspective, there was no need to intervene and potentially disturb with the balance of aether. And so here I remained.

Gaia: So after you failed, he left you here to rot. Some friend he turned out to be.

Mitron: Thus abandoned, I called out for what seemed like an eternity to the only soul who could save me: you, Gaia.

[Vyrerus]

This was the entire impetus for the summoning of Hydaelyn, because the dissenters went "no, this is not acceptable, we cannot cling onto our civilization at the cost of everything else".

No, the impetus for Hydaelyn's creation was specifically their fear of Zodiark's power going unchecked. It's pretty clear that fear was the motivator, because summoning a god that would need to be maintained in much the same way as the one it holds in check is clearly not a real solution, but it was the one they could think to muster that would work, at the time.

[Kesey]

No, the impetus for Hydaelyn's creation was specifically their fear of Zodiark's power going unchecked. It's pretty clear that fear was the motivator, because summoning a god that would need to be maintained in much the same way as the one it holds in check is clearly not a real solution, but it was the one they could think to muster that would work, at the time.

No, the impetus for Hydaelyn's creation was that summoning Zodiark doesn't actually stop the Final Days, it just delays it. So they need to summon Hydaelyn to create a permanent solution. You hear this from the recording of the Ancients that summon Hydaelyn at the end of Anamnesis Anyder.

What's not directly clear here is what is Zodiark doing that just causes The Sound and the Final Days to come back around after an extended period of time.

[Veloran]

The only people they want to "save" are those who are already gone via Zodiark; everyone else, including the souls currently alive, are merely fodder to bring them back.

1/4th of the Amaurotines were never sacrificed to Zodiark to begin with, and like most of the Convocation members must exist as sundered beings in the current sharded world. We can say then that the Ascians are invested in rejoining everything's souls at least for this 1/4th of their people as well as to return the sacrificed.

This was the entire impetus for the summoning of Hydaelyn, because the dissenters went "no, this is not acceptable, we cannot cling onto our civilization at the cost of everything else".

The Anyder actually say nothing about any of this when discussing their motivations for summoning Hydaelyn amongst themselves. They say they intend to summon Hydaelyn because the summoning of Zodiark didn't bring a permanent solution to ending the threat of the Sound. We don't know what that entails, why they believed this or what if anything they even knew of the Sound, but they don't really say anything about the Convocation's intent to sacrifice proliferated life being relevant to their plans.

But Emet-Selch (named specifically by Mitron, but again I suspect Elidibus would also be eligible) didn't even bother, because doing so would mess with the one-track plan he had for Rejoining the First through Light.

This is what he says, we have no reason to believe he's correct. It's true that the Unsundered considered the sundered Ascians as being expendable, because from their perspective they can simply be reraised once again at a later date, but as to his belief that Emet knew his situation, Emet himself says that he believes both of them were slain and that he is the only Ascian on the First.

[YianKutku]

1/4th of the Amaurotines were never sacrificed to Zodiark to begin with, and like most of the Convocation members must exist as sundered beings in the current sharded world. We can say then that the Ascians are invested in rejoining everything's souls at least for this 1/4th of their people as well as to return the sacrificed.

In other words, they see the "life" that is not the 1/4 of their people to be lesser beings. Which tracks with what Emet-Selch keeps ranting about, and which the short stories have illustrated that Azem deeply disagrees with.

The Anyder actually say nothing about any of this when discussing their motivations for summoning Hydaelyn amongst themselves. They say they intend to summon Hydaelyn because the summoning of Zodiark didn't bring a permanent solution to ending the threat of the Sound. We don't know what that entails, why they believed this or what if anything they even knew of the Sound, but they don't really say anything about the Convocation's intent to sacrifice proliferated life being relevant to their plans.

The motivation of the "dissenters" who summoned Hydaelyn was also mentioned by Hythlodaeus in 5.0. In Anyder in 5.2, we are given another motivation, that Zodiark cannot "forestall the doom" of the Ancients. I strongly believe these motivations are entirely compatible; specifically, I read the recordings in Anyder as the dissenters being aware that if the rest of the Amaurotines continued to pay Zodiark's price for every single miracle, it would lead to the end of the Ancients just as much as the End of Days threatened to.

As far as I know, Hythlodaeus's commentary on Hydaelyn's summoners has not been explicitly contradicted.

This is what he says, we have no reason to believe he's correct. It's true that the Unsundered considered the sundered Ascians as being expendable, because from their perspective they can simply be reraised once again at a later date, but as to his belief that Emet knew his situation, Emet himself says that he believes both of them were slain and that he is the only Ascian on the First.

Which assumes that Emet-Selch is astonishingly oblivious and uncaring about where Mitron and Loghrif had gone, if he didn't check out the Flood of Light in the first place to find Eden, and, considering his much-vaunted soul-sight, recognized Mitron's soul in there.

[Veloran]

In other words, they see the "life" that is not the 1/4 of their people to be lesser beings.

No, they see all sundered life as being lesser, because it is. They intend to rejoin all life including that 1/4th of their people.

and which the short stories have illustrated that Azem deeply disagrees with.

How have the short stories shown that in the slightest? Not the stories, but while we know Azem didn't join either the Convocation or the Anyder, but we don't really know why.

The motivation of the "dissenters" who summoned Hydaelyn was also mentioned by Hythlodaeus in 5.0.

We have no evidence Hythlodaeus was correct. So far as we're aware he had no direct connection to the Anyder, so his statement may simply be what he (or Emet) believed.

that Zodiark cannot "forestall the doom" of the Ancients.

They say that as immutable as the laws of reality Zodiark wove may seem, they wouldn't serve to forestall their doom, and they their fate would be the same. And Venat says that the Convocation hasn't offered a permanent solution. This seems to me to heavily imply that the issue the Anyder are seeking to rectify with the summoning of Hydaelyn is the selfsame one Zodiark was intended to solve, not merely a similar doom of their people or an end to them either way. After all, Hydaelyn effectively did that herself.

Which assumes that Emet-Selch is astonishingly oblivious and uncaring about where Mitron and Loghrif had gone, if he didn't check out the Flood of Light in the first place to find Eden, and, considering his much-vaunted soul-sight, recognized Mitron's soul in there.

I'm not really sure why you think he should have set out to scour the vast wasteland permeated with energy the Ascians are weak to in order to search for some trace that the two of them hadn't died when he had every reason to believe they had.

Why even do that? It'd be all the same if the First was rejoined and he simply reraised their rejoined souls on the Source anyway.

[Rosenstrauch]

The writing surrounding Eden is all kinds of weird, frankly. None of the characters who should know about it acknowledge its existence until the raid questline starts. By that point every character who knows is either dead or presumed dead, leaving Urianger to be the sole source of exposition on its history—when he should be just as in the dark as everyone else—for most of the raid questline's runtime.

I can't say I'd hold it against Emet-Selch for not thinking to check that out because of that. 'cause otherwise, I'd also have to hold it against Ardbert for wasting time talking about his feelings the whole time instead of warning us about the city-sized sin eater that caused the Flood of Light. Or Minfilia for spouting off cryptic spoilers as foreshadowing instead of offering advice that'd actually be useful re: the aforementioned world-ending abomination sleeping in her backyard that she arm wrestled into unconsciousness.

[Zohar_Lahar]

6.0 will be interesting because we may end up finding out what the Sound is from and what was its purpose.

As of now I can only speculate the Towers all over the world is a means to create a fake Sound since the entire goal is to recreate the Final Days. That fake Sound, from what we have seen so far, is a means to temper people into being loyal to Garlemald.

If so, then what if the original Sound was a means to temper people into summoning Zodiark before Zodiark was summoned by some unknown organization/group and this entire time the Ascians were just puppets ignorant of the true worshippers of Zodiark?

With the sound, it was more "our dread made manifest our deepest fears". Assuming Fandaniel's "piles" are replicating that effect, then it is more likely the Resistance soldier was tempered by their own fear of the Garlean Empire. (compare with E11 fight against Fatebreaker)

[YianKutku]

No, they see all sundered life as being lesser, because it is. They intend to rejoin all life including that 1/4th of their people.


How have the short stories shown that in the slightest? Not the stories, but while we know Azem didn't join either the Convocation or the Anyder, but we don't really know why.


We have no evidence Hythlodaeus was correct. So far as we're aware he had no direct connection to the Anyder, so his statement may simply be what he (or Emet) believed.


They say that as immutable as the laws of reality Zodiark wove may seem, they wouldn't serve to forestall their doom, and they their fate would be the same. And Venat says that the Convocation hasn't offered a permanent solution. This seems to me to heavily imply that the issue the Anyder are seeking to rectify with the summoning of Hydaelyn is the selfsame one Zodiark was intended to solve, not merely a similar doom of their people or an end to them either way. After all, Hydaelyn effectively did that herself.


I'm not really sure why you think he should have set out to scour the vast wasteland permeated with energy the Ascians are weak to in order to search for some trace that the two of them hadn't died when he had every reason to believe they had.

Why even do that? It'd be all the same if the First was rejoined and he simply reraised their rejoined souls on the Source anyway.

Yes, and after they rejoined all life, they intend to sacrifice the non-Amaurotine life to Zodiark to bring back the rest of the Amaurotines. Hence my assertion that the Amaurotines see non-Amaurotine life as being inferior and lesser, since they believe it to be a fair trade to bring the other 3/4 of their population back.

My point about Azem's characterization in the short stories, as well as the conversation with Hythlodaeus in 5.3, is that they consider the non-Amaurotine population of the Ancient world to be just as worthy, unlike the Convocation, who reportedly see them as abstract populations rather than people. According to Hythlodaeus, Azem preferred to work with the locals to solve whatever problems they face, rather than call on the Convocation for assistance. This is in contrast to Emet-Selch, who sees us as a shard of Azem working with the "local" soul shards, and goes ballistic with ranting about how Nobody Is Worthy.

We have no evidence that Hythlodaeus is incorrect, and indeed I had been convinced by people on this forum that Hythlodaeus does know what he's talking about, back when we were discussing revelations from 5.0. He seems to know things that Emet-Selch would not have let him know (or impart the knowledge of) if Emet-Selch had been paying attention, like Hythlodaeus's account of the summoning of Hydaelyn, contradicting Emet-Selch's own account that Hydaelyn was summoned due entirely to "fear" of Zodiark's "magnificence" (Emet-Selch's words). Emet-Selch even tries to poison the rhetorical well by pre-emptively saying Hydaelyn's own hypothetical account of her summoning will be different and thus false, but Hythlodaeus's account is different, despite his being a creation of Emet-Selch.

Notably Emet-Selch also didn't mention anything about the Anyder group's stated motivations, which contradict what he said about the summoning of Hydaelyn, but does not contradict Hythlodaeus's version. As mentioned, I think it adds to Hythlodaeus's version by giving additional context that builds upon it in a natural way.

I didn't say Emet-Selch should have scoured the Empty to look for Mitron and Loghrif. I said he should have scoured the Empty to find Eden, meaning that he should have practiced due diligence to find out what went wrong and caused the Flood of Light. And if Emet-Selch had laid eyes upon Eden, then given what we're told (many times) about Emet-Selch's soul-sight, he should have recognized Mitron in there. We know he won't be "blinded" by the Light or such, because he also instantly recognized Ryne's nature.