Nature of the Sound

[Kesey]

It should really go without saying that the behavior of the bird in relation to the modern idea of the phoenix is not even close to the only dynamic at play and the story and I'd argue it's certainly not among the most important comparisons we're meant to make. In fact if you want to connect it to the player's knowledge from the game, our experiences with phoenix-entities come from Louisoix and Suzaku - The former a man who was once considered a hero, but drew upon the power of a primal and became tempered, losing faith in mankind, and the latter trapped in eternal grief for the loved one she'd lost, wishing for the power to bring him back and cursing you for not living up to him.




The parallels between these characters in these situations and Emet should be obvious. If you want to focus on the phoenix as seen through the player's experiences in-game, that just further deepens these themes tying back to Emet even more. In every circumstance with a "phoenix" thus far, "rebirth and hope" is in fact something someone else must bring to the phoenix, first Emet to the bird, then WoL to Louisoix, Suzaku, and Emet himself. I hadn't considered these connections previously, but now they seem as intentional as can be considering the storyline.

Thank you for finally acknowledging that I agreed with you and was taking your explanation one step further.

[Kesey]

So... I'm thinking Jenova, or a Jenova-like entity, with Fancy Dan's plan bearing shades of the Lunatic Pandora and the Lunar Cry.

This is interesting, but I thought this game's Lunar Bahamut was a call back to Zodiark, who is in the moon, not the sound. In fact there is no evidence (yet?) that Fandaniel is associated with the sound.

[Veloran]

Thank you for finally acknowledging that I agreed with you and was taking your explanation one step further.

I don't exactly agree that those explanations and interpretations are the same thing...

[Vyrerus]

So, I'll embrace the Chrono Trigger references in this regard, because I've been doing a Let's Play of it recently, and as such, have been ruminating both its translation/localization and JP scripts.

In Chrono Trigger in the infamous kingdom of Zeal(Jiru) there is a town of dreamers, Enhasa. In that place, the citizens of Zeal embrace an almost constant state of sleep in order to have dreams. Here you meet a creature named Doreen, who is strikingly the same as two creatures you met much earlier, Masa(Gran) and Mune(Leon). In English you go on to find out that these creatures are related, siblings even, but only two of them are part of a certain sword.

Well, if you dig into the differences between the English and JP script, you will find a line that was omitted/altered that fills in a huge gap that I wasn't even aware of until I read the original line. In JP, one of the dreamers of Enhasa states something along the lines of, "The creatures of our dreams sometimes materialize." It's phrased a bit more vague than that, but the implication is that the dream trio were brought into existence via the Enlightened Ones' dreams. This same NPC says that the power of Lavos-sama is what makes it possible.

Now, obviously we can't really draw 100% line for line, blow for blow comparison here, but Shadowbringers directly references Shakespeare's, "The Tempest." and also the movie, Forbidden Planet(which is also heavily inspired by The Tempest). In Forbidden Planet, the Krell destroy their own civilization by inadvertently making the monsters from their dreams a reality.

Were there to be a Lavos-like entity, whether they want to call it that or refer to it as the FF7 alien-parasite, or something else entirely, it would fit right in with this setting given this context. Also, given the OP is referencing the Ronkan murals, do note that the first monster you fight in the Qitana Ravel is a, "Ronkan Dreamer."

Really gets the imagination flowing, huh?

[Veloran]

Really gets the imagination flowing, huh?

Excellent catches. Something to add, in Chrono Trigger the kingdom of Zeal was destroyed by Lavos 12,000 years ago. Just so happens to be the exact time period we're given from the Final Days and Amaurot's destruction to the present day in XIV. It's a bit of a particularly specific coincidence.

[Kesey]

Now, obviously we can't really draw 100% line for line, blow for blow comparison here, but Shadowbringers directly references Shakespeare's, "The Tempest." and also the movie, Forbidden Planet(which is also heavily inspired by The Tempest). In Forbidden Planet, the Krell destroy their own civilization by inadvertently making the monsters from their dreams a reality.

But "The Tempest" monsters aren't represented by character's direct fears, they actually represented the natives of the new land (referring to the American colonies) and yes there is fear there, but its of the audience's making over the existence of peoples they already felt were sub-human. Furthermore, because the image of Amaurot that the WOL and the Scions see is creation of Emet's memory, using the area to heavily reference "The Tempest" directly calls back to a critical character in the play, Prospero, who is a mage who uses magic to manipulate the characters to do as he wants--just like Emet was doing. The fact that the racist under tone of Prospero and other European characters of the play tend to use racial identity to look down others then echoes how the Ascians have come to view the people of the source and the shards as lesser beings. This is literally thing about Shadowbringers that made me say that was "kind of genius" instead of the general "oh it references Shakespeare" of the story telling.

But the Shakespeare references don't end there. The main theme is called "Tomorrow and Tomorrow" which is titled as such to recall the famous "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow" speech made by Macbeth, from the play Macbeth. What's key here is that Emet, much like Macbeth, believes they are invincible, destiny has chosen them rule and win, and can't conceive how they will fall. Macbeth's speech is the moment that he realizes that following the evil path of murder has lead him to a meaningless life, so does Emet realized in his final moments where he begs us to remember we once lived. Not to mention the concurring themes of good trimuphing over evil.

Now as much as I would love for all of this to be a reference to Chrono Trigger and some how Lavos = The sound, the real monsters are the Ascians, the actual people doing evil and manipulating humankind from the shadows. Furthermore, I'm having a really hard time tracking the support this thread and others give to those Ascians who have absent mindedly neglected to tell us what actually caused the sound, because those guys are liars. They don't want us to know because they caused it. They weren't the benevolent civilization that they have projected to us, because it they were so great how did they make the leap from superior enlightenment to we're gonna cannibalize 13 worlds and the source to bring it all back? A superior benevolent society knows their time is up and doesn't claw it back from the brink of nothingness.

[YianKutku]

It may simply have been a glimpse into the mindset of Emet and the other Ancients, highlighting their unmalicious callousness when it came to lesser beings (a callousness which would later be inflated to the point where they were willing to do what they did to usher in the Rejoinings).

Tangentially, I found it especially weird that for all Emet-Selch tried to show us Amaurot as this enlightened and peaceful civilization, literally the only three Amaurotines who "survived" the Sundering (and I'm including Elidibus to make it more charitable to them) were immensely callous to "lesser beings", not just regarding the people living on the shards, but also their own Convocation members.

The Eden story even highlighted this: Emet-Selch (or Elidibus, were he so inclined) could have stopped the Flood of Light, if he had saved Mitron early on by de-Edenifying him. Instead, the Ascians just shrugged and went "meh, we can raise another shard of Mitron, forget about that one".

And then there were the flashbacks by Elidibus of his early days on the Convocation, where all the other Convocation members went "you are worthy of your position, so be proud of yourself". Compare to the present day, when every other Ascian felt that Elidibus was an insufferable bore at best, or actively cheered his demise in the case of Fandaniel.

[Riastrad]

Chrono Trigger

Lavos who, much like Jenova, arrived in the form of a meteor. Like Jenova, Lavos's impact on the world was felt immediately, as the world fell into an ice age that seemingly wiped out most surface life following his arrival. Unlike Lavos, he largely went under the radar after that, only surfacing as 65,000,000 years because of the kingdom of Zeal's meddling. Of note is Queen Zeal, whose drastic personality shift from a kind and caring mother to a zealous fanatic willing to sacrifice the entire world for Lavos is very reminiscent of the tempering process.

The final battle also has certain characters speculate that Lavos's life cycle isn't just the result of an out of control apex predator, but a calculated move from an intelligent life form to harvest a planet's lifetime worth of genetic material. There was also a sequel, but getting into that would require another post entirely due to how damn weird it is.

Not perfect, but a resource that I reference at times when thinking about Cross.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONInWM8qd1Y

I will concede that it doesn't have to be Lavos. It could be any number of entities in play for multiple reasons. However, I have never thought for a moment the Ancients caused the sound. You don't make a weapon to kill a sound, but you do use one to kill what is causing it. So "Fancy Dan" (love the nickname by the way) is trying to reawaken the cause of the Final Days? By "driving the piles and causing the first of the beasts to roar to life"? Sounds about right.

We also have to remember that the Fourteenth refused to help summon Zodiark due to the amount of people requiring to fuel his creation. The Fourteenth knew there was a way to stop it without sacrificing anyone and tried to investigate the matter themselves. Is that not a curious thing? If they knew it was because of their over use of creation magic, why would they go off and try to fix it alone? No, something needed killing. Azem just ran out of time.

Yes, time circles endlessly
The hands of fate trained ahead
(Pointing to the edge)
All things change, drawn to the flame
To rise from the ashes.
To begin
We first must see the end

This is why I also believe we are about to hear about a reboot, like 1.0 to 2.0 for XIV. The Final Days and their aftermath? A Realm Reborn. A World Remade.

[Rymi64]

And then there were the flashbacks by Elidibus of his early days on the Convocation, where all the other Convocation members went "you are worthy of your position, so be proud of yourself". Compare to the present day, when every other Ascian felt that Elidibus was an insufferable bore at best, or actively cheered his demise in the case of Fandaniel.

To be fair that could be because of elidibus hyperfixating on fulfilling the role he thought he had as the emissary. And maybe even the promise he made to that certain someone.

[Kesey]

To be fair that could be because of elidibus hyperfixating on fulfilling the role he thought he had as the emissary. And maybe even the promise he made to that certain someone.

I think it's even simpler than that with Elidbus. He was a primal and everything we know of primals shows they are of one mind and one drive. He was going to push his goal all the time, unabated.