Nature of the Sound

[LineageRazor]

I'm still in the camp that believes that the problem is one that originates with the Ancients and their Creation magic affecting the planet in a negative way that none of them could have foreseen. The main reason I believe this has to do with the side-story about the phoenix and its accidental ensouling. Emet-Selch is the foremost authority on the Lifestream and the transition of souls to and from it, and even he was befuddled by the phenomenon. The Phoenix, for its part, was clearly insane and in pain. I feel that this was a hint that something was very wrong with the Lifestream as a whole, and they simply weren't able to puzzle out the problem in time. (Or, for that matter, even try; they simply decided to mercy-kill the thing and put the whole matter behind them.)

I'm ready to believe that the story had little or nothing to do with the eventual Sound-driven cataclysm. It may simply have been a glimpse into the mindset of Emet and the other Ancients, highlighting their unmalicious callousness when it came to lesser beings (a callousness which would later be inflated to the point where they were willing to do what they did to usher in the Rejoinings). For now, though, I believe that the Phoenix episode was a hint at the origins of the Sound and the End of Days, and how even the greatest among the minds of the Ancients failed to recognize the threat before it was too late.

Creation magic was an ability possessed by the Ancients that was as ingrained to them as breathing, and I think that normal use of it should not have posed any kind of threat to the planet. What we saw of Amaraut, though, indicated that they had made both art and science out of the use of Creation magic, pushing the boundaries of what it could do. That, I think, was what began to corrupt the Lifestream and lead to the disaster that followed. Giant space flea is another possibility, to be sure, but it's my second choice.

I think they clearly gave it a lot of thought, really. They knew what it was doing and that it seemed to be inevitably destroying the world, and they prepared the entire sacrifice and Zodiark plan to stop it because they couldn't seem to find any other answers.

Eventually, yeah, they turned to these desperate plans. Earlier on, though, it appears as though they were less concerned about it, hence the "debate" among the Ancient NPCs about whether Amaurot should go to the aid of the far-off suffering cities or not. Once the problem was on their doorstep, you're right, they started thinking long and deep aobut what to do. (At least, as long and deep as they could with monsters literally springing out of their heads left and right and fire falling from the sky.)

[Veloran]

I'm ready to believe that the story had little or nothing to do with the eventual Sound-driven cataclysm. It may simply have been a glimpse into the mindset of Emet and the other Ancients, highlighting their unmalicious callousness when it came to lesser beings (a callousness which would later be inflated to the point where they were willing to do what they did to usher in the Rejoinings). For now, though, I believe that the Phoenix episode was a hint at the origins of the Sound and the End of Days, and how even the greatest among the minds of the Ancients failed to recognize the threat before it was too late.

It's neither. The episode is summed up with this.

"Consumed by the fear of death, it thrashes blindly about. It will know only pain and suffering and inflict the same upon others. A pitiful existence."

"Such moving empathy. It's as if you wore the feathers yourself."

People keep thinking there's something untowards with the phoenix that hints to the start of the Final Days and the Ancients causing it, but the truth is the point of it was to draw a direct parallel between the bird and Emet. I don't know how it could be made more clear, considering Hythlodaeus' line.

Eventually, yeah, they turned to these desperate plans. Earlier on, though, it appears as though they were less concerned about it, hence the "debate" among the Ancient NPCs about whether Amaurot should go to the aid of the far-off suffering cities or not. Once the problem was on their doorstep, you're right, they started thinking long and deep aobut what to do. (At least, as long and deep as they could with monsters literally springing out of their heads left and right and fire falling from the sky.)

I don't really think the debate between a couple of average citizens is all that indicative of what the authorities in Amaurot like the Convocation were thinking about it at that time. Given dealing with affairs in the wider world was the primary purview of the seat of Azem, the rest of the Convocation was probably not prepared to just jump in wildly. Moreover you suggest that they should have acted sooner, but part of that debate you mention addresses that Amaurot really isn't supposed to be some saviors of the world. It's precisely that thinking, which was ultimately brought about by everyone else being wiped out, which led to 12,000 years of Calamities with the Ascians trying to reunify everyone's souls and save those who had sacrificed themselves. In fact you could say this debate was the core of the conflict between the Convocation and the Anyder, as the former took up the mantel of stewards of the star while the latter effectively stood for non-intervention beyond the point of pure survival.

[Kesey]

People keep thinking there's something untowards with the phoenix that hints to the start of the Final Days and the Ancients causing it, but the truth is the point of it was to draw a direct parallel between the bird and Emet. I don't know how it could be made more clear, considering Hythlodaeus' line.

This story doesn't draw a point between Emet and the bird. The parallel is drawn between pre- and post- sundered Emet. Emet's regard for the Phoenix is echoed in his disgust for Varis.

What they say about the Phoenix (your quote) is the exact opposite of what Phoenix is. Phoenix is a symbol of rebirth and hope. Ascians fit the description they ascribe to the Phoenix--consumed by fear of death, inflicting pain and suffering upon others, and are pitiful in existence because Ascians are so powerful they could do so much good for the world but just continue to punish them with calamities/rejoinings. The reading here is ironic because reader already knows Emet will become an Ascian and they are just terrible beings, even if we can sympathize with the hidden motivations for their actions.

[Veloran]

This story doesn't draw a point between Emet and the bird.

It clearly does. Hythlodaeus literally says "it's as if you wore the feathers yourself," that is as explicit as it's possible to describe a parallel. The phoenix in the story houses a soul filled with regrets that rages against it's death in a self-destructive struggle. This is a direct parallel to Emet and the Ascians after the Sundering, as they're destructively struggling for the rebirth of a dead world and it's people. To The Edge even calls back to this specifically with many of it's lyrics. And while we're meant to view this as tragic and regrettable, and I even think WoL is supposed to parallel Emet in this story as it's his task to end the phoenix' suffering, the intention was to paint them as pitiful yes, but not terrible. Of note is the parallel Emet himself draws, in that he describes mortals in terms akin to the phoenix, as thrashing about in their broken lives and repeating their mistakes over and over, and so we see that from his perspective his task with them is the same as with the phoenix, and yet from a greater context we also see that Emet is no different.

There are a ton of connections being drawn in the story, and I think it's too reductive just to say "he had empathy for the bird but disgust for Varis, so the point of the story is to show how he changed into a bad guy."

[Kesey]

It clearly does. Hythlodaeus literally says "it's as if you wore the feathers yourself," that is as explicit as it's possible to describe a parallel. The phoenix in the story houses a soul filled with regrets that rages against it's death in a self-destructive struggle. This is a direct parallel to Emet and the Ascians after the Sundering, as they're destructively struggling for the rebirth of a dead world and it's people. To The Edge even calls back to this specifically with many of it's lyrics. And while we're meant to view this as tragic and regrettable, and I even think WoL is supposed to parallel Emet in this story as it's his task to end the phoenix' suffering, the intention was to paint them as pitiful yes, but not terrible. Of note is the parallel Emet himself draws, in that he describes mortals in terms akin to the phoenix, as thrashing about in their broken lives and repeating their mistakes over and over, and so we see that from his perspective his task with them is the same as with the phoenix, and yet from a greater context we also see that Emet is no different.

There are a ton of connections being drawn in the story, and I think it's too reductive just to say "he had empathy for the bird but disgust for Varis, so the point of the story is to show how he changed into a bad guy."

Again, the reader is assumed to have played the game, so they know that the description ascribed to Phoenix does not fit the the Phoenix (rebirth and hope) and instead they ascribe a description that fits Ascians instead (which the reader should also have knowledge of because reading this assumes you have played the game).

And you are the one being reductive because you fail to take the conclusion one step further and not use your knowledge of Phoenix from the game.

[Veloran]

Again, the reader is assumed to have played the game, so they know that the description ascribed to Phoenix does not fit the the Phoenix (rebirth and hope) and instead they ascribe a description that fits Ascians instead (which the reader should also have knowledge of because reading this assumes you have played the game).

And you are the one being reductive because you fail to take the conclusion one step further and not use your knowledge of Phoenix from the game.

It should really go without saying that the behavior of the bird in relation to the modern idea of the phoenix is not even close to the only dynamic at play and the story and I'd argue it's certainly not among the most important comparisons we're meant to make. In fact if you want to connect it to the player's knowledge from the game, our experiences with phoenix-entities come from Louisoix and Suzaku - The former a man who was once considered a hero, but drew upon the power of a primal and became tempered, losing faith in mankind, and the latter trapped in eternal grief for the loved one she'd lost, wishing for the power to bring him back and cursing you for not living up to him.

A false hope. 'Tis folly to place one's faith in so flawed a race. "Stand together"? Hmph. They would first need to agree on which direction to face. If history teaches us anything, it is that man cannot find common ground between his own two feet.

And you! You dare think yourself his equal? His better!? Then I will put you to the proof. And when you fall, it will be a fate most deserved.

The parallels between these characters in these situations and Emet should be obvious. If you want to focus on the phoenix as seen through the player's experiences in-game, that just further deepens these themes tying back to Emet even more. In every circumstance with a "phoenix" thus far, "rebirth and hope" is in fact something someone else must bring to the phoenix, first Emet to the bird, then WoL to Louisoix, Suzaku, and Emet himself. I hadn't considered these connections previously, but now they seem as intentional as can be considering the storyline.

[Kesey]

It should really go without saying that the behavior of the bird in relation to the modern idea of the phoenix is not even close to the only dynamic at play and the story and I'd argue it's certainly not among the most important comparisons we're meant to make. In fact if you want to connect it to the player's knowledge from the game, our experiences with phoenix-entities come from Louisoix and Suzaku - The former a man who was once considered a hero, but drew upon the power of a primal and became tempered, losing faith in mankind, and the latter trapped in eternal grief for the loved one she'd lost, wishing for the power to bring him back and cursing you for not living up to him.




The parallels between these characters in these situations and Emet should be obvious. If you want to focus on the phoenix as seen through the player's experiences in-game, that just further deepens these themes tying back to Emet even more. In every circumstance with a "phoenix" thus far, "rebirth and hope" is in fact something someone else must bring to the phoenix, first Emet to the bird, then WoL to Louisoix, Suzaku, and Emet himself. I hadn't considered these connections previously, but now they seem as intentional as can be considering the storyline.

Thank you for finally acknowledging that I agreed with you and was taking your explanation one step further.

[Kesey]

I'm ready to believe that the story had little or nothing to do with the eventual Sound-driven cataclysm. It may simply have been a glimpse into the mindset of Emet and the other Ancients, highlighting their unmalicious callousness when it came to lesser beings (a callousness which would later be inflated to the point where they were willing to do what they did to usher in the Rejoinings). For now, though, I believe that the Phoenix episode was a hint at the origins of the Sound and the End of Days, and how even the greatest among the minds of the Ancients failed to recognize the threat before it was too late.

You are correct that the story was to point out the callousness thought of lesser beings, as the parallel is continued by drawing a comparison between pre- and post- sundered Emet showing his inner disgust for his progeny in Varis who was the perfect grandson in all regards other than his soul is fractured.

The phoenix on the other hand is to call back Louisoix, so to subtlety link the Ancients and Sharlayans again. It's clear that when Louisoix summoned the 12 and was transformed into Phoenix, he was using the same creation magic the Ascians are giving beast tribes to summon primals, and the Ancients used flagrantly. So the question posed is why did Louisoix know about this magic? Especially, if he didn't get it from an Ascian.

[YianKutku]

It may simply have been a glimpse into the mindset of Emet and the other Ancients, highlighting their unmalicious callousness when it came to lesser beings (a callousness which would later be inflated to the point where they were willing to do what they did to usher in the Rejoinings).

Tangentially, I found it especially weird that for all Emet-Selch tried to show us Amaurot as this enlightened and peaceful civilization, literally the only three Amaurotines who "survived" the Sundering (and I'm including Elidibus to make it more charitable to them) were immensely callous to "lesser beings", not just regarding the people living on the shards, but also their own Convocation members.

The Eden story even highlighted this: Emet-Selch (or Elidibus, were he so inclined) could have stopped the Flood of Light, if he had saved Mitron early on by de-Edenifying him. Instead, the Ascians just shrugged and went "meh, we can raise another shard of Mitron, forget about that one".

And then there were the flashbacks by Elidibus of his early days on the Convocation, where all the other Convocation members went "you are worthy of your position, so be proud of yourself". Compare to the present day, when every other Ascian felt that Elidibus was an insufferable bore at best, or actively cheered his demise in the case of Fandaniel.