Why do people bother dodging aoe during trash pulls?

[Ariel_Valmont]

Fun facts time. Most AoEs in dungeon trash pulls are fairly close range. The classes which need to fight at close range have barely any abilities with cast times and can dodge AoEs while continuing to attack (provided the player is skilled enough to multitask). Meanwhile the classes which would be worst affected by having to dodge AoEs (casters) can fight further away so the AoEs mostly don't hit them. A BLM taking an occasional targeted AoE during a trash pull is fine. A NIN eating all the trash AoEs in Heroes' Gauntlet is not.

It’s harder on the healer for casters to take aoe than it is melee DPS, due to less armor and less effective mitigation/self heals in most cases.


On any given wall to wall pull, for example NIN should be able to use Shade Shift, Bloodbath, Second Wind, and a HP pot, and effectively ignore most aoe if they have a certain level of gear in relation to the content being run, and never be a burden to the healer.

[ForteNightshade]

How would it die? Raiding exists to get better gear and have more challenging content. You don't need to compare yourself to others to be interested in raiding.

Because a lot of people like parsing. It essentially creates free content since players have a reason to continuously go into Savage. Without it, Savage literally serves no purpose beyond an Ultimate gate. Speaking of which, if you can't see other people's damage, you have no means of determining potential DPS related issues. People will naturally blame the DPS themselves when say, the healers are both only pulling 5K. The end result is Ultimate becomes increasingly more exclusive as players won't recruit outside their circles. Needless to say, there's a reason every other MMO has openly allowed parsers. WoW even restructured their entire raid scene around Deadly Boss Mods. They didn't do that on a whim but due to its immense popularity.

The devs have openly stated how much they dislike parsers and that website yet do nothing about it. Why? They know the negative impact banning it would actually have. Instead, they reap the benefits of it providing a reason for people to spam Savage for longer while banning any mention of its use in-game.

And well, just because it's fun for you it doesn't mean it's fun for everyone yet I've seen plenty of people pushing this "pull wall to wall" and "dps more" stuff onto those who don't consider this fun. I was literally told by someone here on the forums that if they were with me in a dungeon and I would single pull they would kick me.
Just recently a healer in Qitana Ravel literally Rescued me just so I'd pull everything. I hate big pulls but decided not to argue and oh boy, did I LOVE being at 10-20% HP constantly, so much fun it was, not stressful at all. /s
And then there are people that think you're not doing enough damage in their opinion so they try to tell you some nonsensical rotation they came up with, like using a Swiftcast on RDM. Man, does it trigger me every time.
So if eating AoEs with your face, giving your healer more job to do and constantly caring about how much damage you've done is fun for you - go ahead, but no need to push such playstyle on others which is what I've seen people do many times in casual content.

Perhaps it's you who hasn't considered you're in the minority. If three other people want to go fast, you insisting otherwise—regardless of your role—may cause friction. And they may opt to kick you. Conversely, if three people want to take the scenic route and enjoy exploring while someone else tries to force a speedrun, they have just as much right to boot them. It typically comes down majority rule. With that in mind, you'll find most players prefer faster runs the higher you go up. Hence why you attempting to pull small in Qitana Ravel was met with Rescue. I'm not saying I agree with Rescue pulling a tank, but I can't say I'm surprised by it either. From a healer perspective, it's immensely boring if a tank only pulls three mobs. I literally don't heal them. They never need it. I'm effectively a gimped DPS. Two packs really should be your sweet spot.

Nevertheless, Shadowbringers dungeons offered you an alternative though: Trusts. They're more or less designed for people who prefer taking their time.

As for your HP. Seriously, don't concern yourself with your HP. Within reason, of course. It only really matters to the healer. So long as you're rotating CDs properly, you sitting at 20% or even lower makes little difference. For example, I'll let tanks drop super low on White Mage because I'm trying to get the most value from Benediction or I know Assize is just about off CD. If the tank dies, that's on me for misplaying their health.

If you want use negligibility and irrelevancy in your argument, then the DPS gain you get by standing in an AoE- if any, also follows suit. We're talking dungeons here, remember? They don't have any kind of enrage, so even if you do have an ice mage, it also doesn't matter, and means absolutely nothing. You can argue time, but I wouldn't be using that argument if you are also going to use negligibility and meme creation. The time you will undoubtedly speak of is just as irrelevant to me, the ice mage; everyone except the person who complains about it, which basically puts you in the same boat as me when I talk about getting the eff out of AoEs, lethal or not.

Again, this isn't about uptime or damage taken. It simply shows good etiquette within your groups, as does trying to optimize and playing to the best of your ability. When all players do this, you get painless dungeon runs where everyone gets along, and they get through there asap. Most players when they see other players stand in an AoE don't think, "Oh.. he must know his limits." Usually they think you suck.

There's no greed here. At least not the kind associated with calculated risk. That happens in LoTA when one team decides to chisel away at Phlegethon's remaining health before he gets off another Acient Flare instead of retreating to their pad, or finishing TCJ when 3-4 AoE markers are right under you like I did. If there is a greed, it's the kind that says, "I can't be bothered to interrupt my casting."

One actively contributes to a faster pull while the other hinders it. They are not the same despite your insistence otherwise. Going one step further, an Ice Mage will actually necessitate more healing than a Dragoon who stood in one AoE to keep their GCD rolling. Why? That Dragoon likely doesn't need single target healing and will either heal themselves or catch things like Earthly Star or Assize. Meanwhile, ten mobs are taking forever to die because you have an Ice Mage contributing 5k when it should be 20k. Therefore, the tank will take additional autos. Yes, the Dragoon losing a single GCD certainly isn't world ending, but that was never my point. You equated it to an Ice Mage, which is simply a bad comparison.

You can an equally good dungeon or raid, regardless. My two vuln stacks in E10N didn't necessitate additional healing or even a tank swap. It literally changed nothing. Likewise, not moving out for the tether mechanic during the last boss of Grand Cosmos means nothing due to how negligible his damage is. Frankly, I couldn't care less if someone thinks "you suck" for eating aoes I know I can handle myself. It didn't impact them as I didn't die nor did I demand they heal me through mechanics I would otherwise die to. Simply put, if they ignored me entirely, the outcome wouldn't have changed.

People attempt to cheese LotA because they're bored. Maybe if we were synced closer to its ilvl instead of 80 ilvls above it, this wouldn't happen. As for the Ninja. If the AoEs were relatively small or typically slow and they simply misjudged how much time they had to move out, they took a risk and lost. The only way you learn timings is through trial and error much in the same way with big pulls or aggressive healer DPS. I've been that Ninja before and in most cases, I make it out without losing TCJ. On some occasions, I don't. I'd much rather players who are trying to improve than those who play extremely safe and disengage at the first sight of a mechanic. The former will gradually get better, assuming they aren't just eating AoEs for giggles. The latter never will.

[AziraSyuren]

What kind of competent player is uploading expert roulette runs to this website that shall not be named?

me lol

That's not to say I take the content super seriously or judge people, though.

[Vahlnir]

Also, I see no issue with people not dodging as long as they are geared for it and like I previously stated you know how to use your self heal abilities. If your job is under geared, be a pal and dodge. It’s really dependent on know what hits you can take.

Yeah. Personally though, my instinct screams at me to dodge, so that's what I do. As a tank, I can keep everything grouped up enough that even the slightest movement doesn't result in much of a loss in AoE damage, either from me or my party members.

[astercantus]

Just wanted to point out a couple of things:

1) Most of the comments here focus on higher level dungeons and players with (presumably) a bunch of 80s. From a learning perspective, I'd say dodging aoes in dungeons is important. Sprouts get their first taste of collaborative gameplay through dungeons, and everything from sastasha all the way to perhaps holminster is integral to building that foundation which will serve them later in extremes/raids. The same sprouts who never really bother to build the habit of moving out the orange puddles will most likely be the same ones who die really easily in aoe-intensive trials and raids, just because they never practiced in easier content. If you have all 80s and don't want to move out of an aoe because it'll disrupt your 20 step rotation, that's fine by me. But I hope we can acknowledge that for newer players dodging is a part of the game that they must learn.

2) Maybe it's just me, but I don't really seem to recall dps taking small/trivial amounts of damage from aoes in trash pulls...their health always seems to get chunked a good 1/3-1/2 and *then* they continue to stand in further aoes, necessitating a heal. Even in lower level dungeons some of these aoes are pretty severe (e.g. aurum vale morbols' bad breath). With the ShB dungeons, a lot of these aoes also seem to overlap to the point where standing in the concentrated orange goo is hazardous.

Personally, I'm in the camp where I don't mind healing you as long as you can prove that those extra puddles you stood in were worth the damage you put out. If a dps has no idea what their rotation is + loves to collect aoes like candy then I'll just be very bemused (and probably forget where my raise button is).

[WoW]

Everyone keeps calling MPK a bad troll. But he still manages to pull a lot into his threads. I'd say he's doing a good job at that.

But regardless if he's trolling or not, he does have a point here. He's not telling people to eat AOEs to make life harder on healers, but rather telling them to eat the ones that can barely do any damage, which are every AOE from trash mobs in dungeons, to not lose uptime. So it amazes me how some players are against anything related to improvement because it's an advice given by "an elitist". He's literally telling people how to do more damage while being lazy and pressing less buttons in those dungeons!! Suddenly people now wanna do the mechanics and press more buttons. smh

[technole]

Everyone keeps calling MPK a bad troll. But he still manages to pull a lot into his threads. I'd say he's doing a good job at that.

But regardless if he's trolling or not, he does have a point here. He's not telling people to eat AOEs to make life harder on healers, but rather telling them to eat the ones that can barely do any damage, which are every AOE from trash mobs in dungeons, to not lose uptime. So it amazes me how some players are against anything related to improvement because it's an advice given by "an elitist". He's literally telling people how to do more damage while being lazy and pressing less buttons in those dungeons!! Suddenly people now wanna do the mechanics and press more buttons. smh

They don't punish players for AoEs enough outside of raid content, that's all it is. Thankfully they only have one dungeon per major patch and spend time making better party content elsewhere, so it's not a big deal.

To give to some perspective, apparently they saw a lot of savage groups last tier just eating Infrit's soccer dad AoEs in E6S and taking the damage stack, putting more on the healers to heal through it. Now this go around that if you eat any savage AoEs you are going to get damage down, and enough of that can seriously hurt a progging group clear that savage floor. People avoid damage down like the plague in Savage.

There isn't much they can do aside from upping the damage in some form, but it's tiny content in the game now, not even a major selling point anymore.

[Stepjam]

Because depending on the pull the healer is already having to focus on keeping the tank alive, and I don't wanna add to their stress.

[Lumivyory]

Some people's idea of having fun is competition and rankings. I have never seen anyone kicked from casual content for damage specifically. Usually its for stuff like not AoEing trash pulls.

I understand some people have fun with it but with the amount of people I've seen that try push that kind of competitive behavior on those who might not even raid at all is crazy. That is what bothers me.
Healers and DPS pulling in 24-man raids and dungeons just to do more damage or pull everything even tho it's absolutely unnecessary and showing this kind of example to the new players also annoys me.

I disagree with kicking anyone for anything other than long afk, offline or trolling. Let people play the way they want or just politely ask them why they don't do this or that.
As I said in another post - someone was ready to kick me for single pulls as a tank which is not okay.

Perhaps it's you who hasn't considered you're in the minority. If three other people want to go fast, you insisting otherwise—regardless of your role—may cause friction. And they may opt to kick you. Conversely, if three people want to take the scenic route and enjoy exploring while someone else tries to force a speedrun, they have just as much right to boot them. It typically comes down majority rule.

Nevertheless, Shadowbringers dungeons offered you an alternative though: Trusts. They're more or less designed for people who prefer taking their time.

As for your HP. Seriously, don't concern yourself with your HP. Within reason, of course. It only really matters to the healer.

Considering that more and more people pick up this whole speedrunning mindset it's no wonder people like me are a minority.
But the thing is, going slow will makes someone bored at best. Going fast, on the other hand, will probably make someone stressed, especially if they are a tank or a healer. Which is better - being bored or stressed?
I'd rather people just communicate beforehand.

Unfortunately, not everything can be solved with Trusts. This was a Leveling Roulette run.

And I just can't not concern myself with my HP as I just don't want to die and start this pull all over again. And this adds to the stress, especially since there is just no way out of this pull once it's done. At some point I just run out of CDs and panic even more.
This is a big reason why I rarely do Leveling Roulette as a tank or a healer. While I enjoy tanking and main a healer this is not kind of tanking or healing I want.
People just never think about the fact that someone in a group might feel more than uncomfortable. Like I said above - would be nice for people to communicate, which, to be fair, does happen and I'm grateful to those that actually ask about big pulls before starting.

[Mavrias]

I understand some people have fun with it but with the amount of people I've seen that try push that kind of competitive behavior on those who might not even raid at all is crazy. That is what bothers me.
Healers and DPS pulling in 24-man raids and dungeons just to do more damage or pull everything even tho it's absolutely unnecessary and showing this kind of example to the new players also annoys me.

I disagree with kicking anyone for anything other than long afk, offline or trolling. Let people play the way they want or just politely ask them why they don't do this or that.
As I said in another post - someone was ready to kick me for single pulls as a tank which is not okay.


Considering that more and more people pick up this whole speedrunning mindset it's no wonder people like me are a minority.
But the thing is, going slow will makes someone bored at best. Going fast, on the other hand, will probably make someone stressed, especially if they are a tank or a healer. Which is better - being bored or stressed?
I'd rather people just communicate beforehand.

Unfortunately, not everything can be solved with Trusts. This was a Leveling Roulette run.

And I just can't not concern myself with my HP as I just don't want to die and start this pull all over again. And this adds to the stress, especially since there is just no way out of this pull once it's done. At some point I just run out of CDs and panic even more.
This is a big reason why I rarely do Leveling Roulette as a tank or a healer. While I enjoy tanking and main a healer this is not kind of tanking or healing I want.
People just never think about the fact that someone in a group might feel more than uncomfortable. Like I said above - would be nice for people to communicate, which, to be fair, does happen and I'm grateful to those that actually ask about big pulls before starting.

The kick function is for removing incompatible party members from the group via a soft majority rule vote. A sole person cannot kick you from a group matched from duty finder, they need 1 - 3 others in agreement. While you may disagree with kicking for reasons other than the ones you listed, you are not the arbiter of what groups are allowed to kick for. GMs have stated several times that simple differences in playstyle is a valid reason to initiate a vote dismiss.

If you are uncomfortable with larger pull sizes or a faster but thats not what the rest of the group (and vice versa if the group wants slower and you want faster) and neither side is willing to compromise, then a vote dismiss should be initiated so that both parties can find teammates more suited to their playstyle.

I think a lot of peoples problems with being kicked is they take it personally. It really shouldn't be personal. Its am opportunity for a free requeue and neither party is forced to play with someone they don't want to.