Why do people bother dodging aoe during trash pulls?

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

Literally said afterwards that my problem was that people who like to rush things in dungeons and fight for whoever has the best DPS are pushing this onto those who might not find it fun. And then kick or shame them for "underperforming". And I'm not speaking about Expert specifically, I avoid Expert like a plague considering that I know people will rush.

I have been in thousands of experts, normal mode raids, normal mode trials, etc. over the years and never once seen anyone get kicked or shamed for 'underperforming.' The amount of time you'd waste kicking someone and look for a replacement that -might- be better isn't worth it; that's what turning your favorite streaming service on and watching something when you see that single-targetting BLM in a pull of 9 mobs and know its going to be a slow run is for. The only time I ever see anyone get kicked is in harder content, where a person's dps can in fact prevent clearing said content, thus requiring you to remove weak links. Not to mention, trying to shame someone about their performance has just a likely chance of a GM dropping into your DMs if they decide to report you for harassment, so very few are going to comment on that basis alone over an expert of all things.

Also pulling slower wouldn't make a run that much longer. AoE skills usually do less damage than single target skills so in the end even if you gather everything and start to AoE there will be only some minutes difference.

You can easily shave off 10+ minutes from the average DF run if you pull giant, sprint between pulls and know your rotation for bosses. 10 minutes isn't a small number, especially when you do it every day.
Lets look at this another way, through some hard, cold, uncaring, math.

One group pulls 3 mobs. You have 2x BLM that for some reason, only want to use single target. the other group has 2xBLM that are ready to unleash AOE and the group pulls 3 packs of 3 mobs, for 9 total.
The small pull group BLMs enter their fire phase, and use Fire 4 (300 per cast) x 3 = 900, for 1800 potency between them.
The other BLM group uses 3x Flare, for (260 (first target) + ((260*0.6 (Flare falloff potency)) * 8(number of remaining targets))*3) for 4524 potency, or 9048 potency total between the two of them.

The speedrun group, in the span of about 9s, has done almost 5x as much damage as the 2x solo target BLM group in the exact same time. To put this in perspective, the 2x AOE BLM group just did 45s worth of damage in 9s, meaning they saved 36s. For that single instance of a single pull. Magnify that over every big pull you can do in a dungeon and it adds up FAST. Add in Freeze, Thunder 4, etc and you get an entire single target rotation's worth of damage done in 2-3 GCDs. And that's just on the dps. Throw in comparisons like a healer not dpsing vs one chain-aoeing holy/gravity/Art of war, and a tank fully utilizing their aoe rotation instead of 1-2ing or god forbid, single targetting and the numbers just balloon like crazy. When giant pulling, AOE skills do ridiculous amounts of damage compared to single target. The comparison isn't even remotely fair for single target.

If you're tired and bored of the dungeon - don't do it. And no, I don't care about the tomestones.
I've been spamming World of Darkness and even though I've seen it a million times already since the day it came out I'm still not bored of it and do not want to get though it super fast and get out.
I don't understand this whole "I'm tired of doing this dungeon but I'm gonna do it anyway". Oh yeah, so much fun you guys are having.

You may not care about tomestones. But an intensely far, FAR many more do, as saving up tomes to buy that shiny new piece to improve their character is fun. And Expert, for time spent vs reward, completely crushes everything else you could possibly do to earn tomes.
For the person just hopping on to do dailies, for the person who maybe only has a single hour of playtime a night to play, for every single person that may want to farm tomes in another way like maps but has no friends online to come join them, Expert is by far and large, the best option. So when they've seen the same dungeon for the 50th time, chances are they're not interested in taking their time strolling along and admiring the scenery, nor are they interested in a tank that seemingly wants to make the run slower for some arbitrary reason when gigapulling is ridiculously easy unless you're severely undergeared, they want to get their stuff done and get out.

It's an inevitability that people will find the path of least resistance and abuse it to finish their current objective so they can get back to other content they might find actually fun. Take a look at literally every step of the old relics - I remember when people spammed the Aetherochemical Facility dungeon over 30+ times for tomes for one Heavensward relic step. I can pretty much guarantee very few of them found it fun; but it was the fastest and most efficient, hence why it was by far and large the most popular method to deal with that step, despite being the pinnacle of an unfun grind.

MMOs are filled with busywork that most won't find fun. But people do it anyway because the shiny gear or upgrade on the other end does give satisfaction. If you don't care about tomestones and find fun in spamming WoD all day, all the power to you. But understand that people have wildly different definitions of fun, and for many people in this game, getting that new piece of gear is fun, subjecting themselves to whatever path is most efficient to achieve their goals.

[technole]

There is also the factor that less people are doing dungeons for tomes nowadays, and thankfully they only do one dungeon per major patch mainly for story reasons. Probably among one of the best moves YoshiP has ever made as producer, removing the 2nd dungeon to expand work on better and more fun content. Now we have a lot more content that allows you to cap. Some do hunt trains, primal farming, savage, bozja, pvp, etc. The economy is so vast that dungeons are just a small blip in the radar now, so the eagerness to be efficent becomes higher.

This is where the point is made about people wanting doing dungeons fast and easy, if you are making it take 30+ minutes to do a dungeon, with bite sized pulls, you are just making this tome experience the least valuable of anything that is out there to cap. You can several Emerald Weapon Extreme clears in 30 minutes for-example and get tomes that way along with a weapons, mount, etc. So look at it from that perspective, make good use of time with the buttons you have available to you. You'll never learn to be good if you don't try pulling until the wall. Why be a tank if you don't want to be tanky. (That's another subject I have beef on, people playing tank and not wanting to do what the job advertises).

[Lumivyory]

I have been in thousands of experts, normal mode raids, normal mode trials, etc. over the years and never once seen anyone get kicked or shamed for 'underperforming.'

Well, I did. And, in fact, the first person in this thread that mentioned the website that shall not be named told someone else to work on their performance.

You may not care about tomestones. But an intensely far, FAR many more do, as saving up tomes to buy that shiny new piece to improve their character is fun.

Well this is very contradictory. Everyone claims that they are bored and tired of doing the same dungeons for tomestones but then you say that it's fun. So are you bored or is it fun?

For the person just hopping on to do dailies, for the person who maybe only has a single hour of playtime a night to play, for every single person that may want to farm tomes in another way like maps but has no friends online to come join them, Expert is by far and large, the best option.

Why would you even rush so much if you have very little time to play? That just looks like people give themselves an extra chore to do.


For the third time - I fully understand that different people find different things fun. What I don't understand is forcing others to do what they don't find fun. If you haven't seen elitists that think that they know better than anyone then lucky you.

[ForteNightshade]

Well, I did. And, in fact, the first person in this thread that mentioned the website that shall not be named told someone else to work on their performance.

Why is this considered a negative? This is ultimately a team game where your performance impacts other players. In the vast majority of cases people will only speak up if something really sticks out; zero DPS healer, slow pulls, lack of AoEs, Ice Mage and etc. Noticing any of this doesn't require any third party tool, by the way.

Well this is very contradictory. Everyone claims that they are bored and tired of doing the same dungeons for tomestones but then you say that it's fun. So are you bored or is it fun?

You're mischaracterizing the argument. For many players, dungeons are simply a means to an end. They aren't necessarily fun but upgrading their character is. Since Expert offers 90 tomes, they feel obligated to queue since that's the best bang for their buck. The same argument can be applied to leveling dungeons. I absolutely despise being synced down on certain jobs but I'll still occasionally queue for Leveling or Alliance due to the massive EXP offered. It doesn't mean I enjoy them.

For the third time - I fully understand that different people find different things fun. What I don't understand is forcing others to do what they don't find fun. If you haven't seen elitists that think that they know better than anyone then lucky you.

We've been over this already. Majority rules. If you queue into a dungeon and everyone else wants to zip through while you want to enjoy the scenery. Demanding they slow down means you're forcing your preference onto three other people.

[LaughingBanana]

*scratches head*

Because when I play as tanks, I don't want to burden healers even more during big pulls by taking unnecessary damage when I can just move out from AOE area. *Especially* since I can just return to the original position very easily so positioning for melee DPS rarely become a concern. *Especially* if the DPSes in my team are all ranged, so positioning matters little. Even without avoiding the AOEs the concentrated damage from big pulls mob can be devastating.

Why wouldn't you try to avoid unnecessary damage? I play mainly as healers, and it always annoy me when someone took damage from something that can be easily avoided, so that I need to use additional resources to heal them.

"If there is 5 AOEs there's something wrong with the party" I mean what even is this? When you big pull everyone AOEs from them all can be numerous, I mean can you even reasonably prevent big pull mobs to not bombard you with AOEs? (Probably only with Holy, but that is temporary and what if the healer in your party is Astro or Scholar?)

[Alaray]

Not always. For example a whm casting holy doing so would require you to lose a gcd that's not holy to move out esp if you're in a middle of a pact of mobs. Plus sometimes the tank makes it worse by moving out of the aoe and dragging mobs with them

eh it's up to you, I tank/melee 99% of the time and just side step em cuz it's 0 loss on my end

it's not that big a deal, i mean, i eat aoe's on whm 'cuz i cant be bothered to move and the asylum'll handle it while i push holy again; the thread's content just sounded like "The case why everyone should just ignore them" vs. like "i mean, if it's just' incidental damage that doesn't actually matter, finish the cast"

in the broader sense of application it just seems weird to optimize a dungeon much, unless doing speed rankings but those generally drop healers from what i remember back when ppl were on that amaurot speed ranking thing for a month or so (I might be misremembering, i just remember a lot of people talking about war/rdm/blm and... i want... to say nin? something like that)

but im also the person that doesn't really care about someone's dungeon performance, prolly won't shoot 'em a commendation for good play, but eh, people had to deal with me in Heavensward and that's my penance lmao

[MilkieTea]

Because I like to build up good habits and if that means doing said good habit even when unnecessary, I'll do so. I'm still new to tanking but I mainly DPS and I know the healers attention isn't going to be on me, so I only eat AOEs if I know for a fact it won't hurt me. And that's not very often. an extra 2 seconds doesn't mean much in the overall course of things.

[Lumivyory]

Why is this considered a negative? This is ultimately a team game where your performance impacts other players. In the vast majority of cases people will only speak up if something really sticks out; zero DPS healer, slow pulls, lack of AoEs, Ice Mage and etc. Noticing any of this doesn't require any third party tool, by the way.

Oh, I'm not speaking about the obvious bad performance issues that usually come from newbies or just people that don't know what they're doing. I'm speaking of people that are doing fine but not "good enough" in some people's eyes.

We've been over this already. Majority rules. If you queue into a dungeon and everyone else wants to zip through while you want to enjoy the scenery. Demanding they slow down means you're forcing your preference onto three other people.

My favorite part is when the majority rushes forward and I'm the tank/healer that is not prepared neither mentally nor gear wise for a giant pull and then we wipe.
Well, I was already avoiding Expert/8-man raids/Savage and now I know I should keep avoiding them. Though it's starting to feel like no content is casual anymore.

[HyoMinPark]

Oh, I'm not speaking about the obvious bad performance issues that usually come from newbies or just people that don't know what they're doing. I'm speaking of people that are doing fine but not "good enough" in some people's eyes.

In most instances, you won’t see people even mention underperformance. Most don’t care to bring it up—instances I’ve seen brought up are usually ones that are fairly deserving of being called out (e.g., AFKing in Alliance Raid Roulette when it’s any of the Crystal Tower raids; DPS not AOEing when they really should be; a healer being basically AFK—rarely are they called out for not dealing damage, despite the consensus of the community that healers should always DPS when they aren’t having to heal). The only times where you will see underperformance really brought up is generally in scenarios where it matters when a person isn’t pulling their own weight (Party Finder for EX/Savage/Ultimate). And even then, I don’t see it brought up with this overwhelming amount of toxicity a lot of people insinuate happens. Does it happen on occasion? Yes. I’m not saying it never happens. But it’s not nearly as prevalent as some would make it seem.

My favorite part is when the majority rushes forward and I'm the tank/healer that is not prepared neither mentally nor gear wise for a giant pull and then we wipe.
Well, I was already avoiding Expert/8-man raids/Savage and now I know I should keep avoiding them. Though it's starting to feel like no content is casual anymore.

If you are uncomfortable with larger pulls, say something. You can’t expect the group to know right off the bat that you aren’t confident in larger pulls as a tank or a healer. If you did say something and they rush ahead, then perhaps you can have an argument for being mad about it. But if you’re silent and just expect them to know, well, they aren’t clairvoyant. Big pulls are generally the standard on NA/EU servers, and they are rarely threatening in most dungeons. Hence why groups automatically assume that’s how things will be done.

Plenty of content is plenty casual still. Most content in this game is causal—and said casual play can have higher or lower degrees depending on things like your Data Center. However, people wanting to be efficient with their time when it comes to things like capping or the like doesn’t mean that they aren’t still casual players.

If you want to relax and take your time—and don’t want to deal with randoms in DF raining on your parade—form your own groups dedicated to that. This game has multiple platforms for that (FCs, PFs, Fellowships, Linkshells, etc.). Or just run with friends and goof off—I used to spend most of my time just running with friends and memeing in leveling dungeons. Less so now because we’re all on different work schedules, but that’s how I played for a very long time.

Majority rules in DF. In a game where you are playing with other people and not computers, that will always be the case. Go with it, or branch off and have your own parties that are designed to do things the way you prefer them be done. The same goes for people who want to “speedrun” Experts (which has always been a thing—it’s not a new concept and has been around since ARR). If they don’t want to deal with potentially getting 3 people in DF who want to take the scenic routes, they can form their own groups. It’s truly not that hard to do, and it will save you a lot of grief in the long run.

[MilkieTea]

In most instances, you won’t see people even mention underperformance.

From what I gather, Lumivyory is speaking from personal experience. I also believe it's been stated here (I genuinely don't remember who, and I'm kinda lazy and don't want to look for it) but there've been cases of healers rescuing tanks just to purposefully force them to pull more.

I myself have had two poor experiences tanking - I have a chat macro letting people know I'm new to tanking so they don't expect huge pulls or something amazing from me. But those two poor experiences were... jarring and very hurtful. Purposefully nothing that could get them cited for harassment but it was very targeted and Not Fun.