A thing or two about Werlyt

[Veloran]

it was so bad it soured Cid's relationship with Gaius and was a major motivating factor in his defection.

I think you have that backwards? Midas' growing obsession with the Meteor project driving away Cid is what led to Gaius taking him in, which all happened after the occupation of Ala Mhigo and the Battle of Silvertear Skies. Gaius' and Cid's relationship was probably at it's best during this period, when he was like a second father to him, before the Bozja Incident caused Cid to defect from the Empire.

While we don't have that much lore on the Republic( SE we want a Garlic expansion T_T), I feel like what is the closest to the truth would be that the Ascians fostered the seeds of prejudice that already were due to the Garleans being mistreated by their neighbors and blowing it out of proportions by giving Garlemald a leader they worship nudging them in certain direction. Where Solus pointed, people followed because they agreed with him. And it wouldn't be the first time the people in this game or IRL followed a charismatic person whom they regarded as a savior of sorts.

In regards to the Garleans, we have remarkably little of their history relating to the periods around their rise as an empire. We don't know the state of their nation or any conflicts they may have had with surrounding countries in Illsabard, and we don't know how exactly Solus rose to the position of emperor. As far as Emet goes, we know he did a number of things during his reign that are strangely at-odds with the Ascian goals for Garlemald, particularly backing down from invading Eorzea after Silvertear and shutting down the Meteor project for ten years after it destroyed Bozja. And his patronage of the arts rather than creating a climate of censorship devoted to propaganda, but maybe you can just call that a distracting side project.

Frankly, I'm pretty sure Solus being an Ascian was a relatively recent story decision, and it's hard to reconcile that with some of the other things we know and their overall plans.

[EliTheGunbreaker]

( RE Veloran)

I actually missed the original message to which this is response while reading yesterday, but yes, I think Cid's relationship with Gaius started to crack after the whole thing with Midas and Meteor went down, with the Bozja incident and the resulting trauma from it being the factors that eventually lead to his defection. While Ala Mhigo may have contributed to it as Cid grew up and grew disillusioned, I don't think it was the main reason, or at least I don't remember there being evidence of Cid being in any way involved in Ala Mhigo's politics.

I actually think the patronage of arts thing may be both him tapping into the flamboyant facade he likes to put up, and the fact that there was a period in his life where he genuinely held affection towards his mortal firstborn son( and, possibly, other modern human things by extension), as shown in Through His Eyes. Him shutting down Meteor for ten years and backing after Silvertear are interesting though. I'd love if they elaborated more on it, especially since with 5.3 it seems Emet can still manifest himself into this world... I suspect there was something important going on between him and Gaius in relations to Silvertear, especially since it was the latter who insisted on attacking it... I'd love to know the full context of and why Emet was against it, since an easier Primal summoning actually served his goals... I wonder if it was a situation where prohibiting one to do something only egged them further...

[Kuroka]

If you're talking about Ala Mhigo, it was not a small attack. While we don't have a firsthand account to go off, it was so bad it soured Cid's relationship with Gaius and was a major motivating factor in his defection.

In regards to the Waking Sands incident, the fact nobody in Vesper Bay was aware the place had been attacked was a plot point. The only people that should have been able to get into the Waking Sands were Scions, who were a much smaller underground group at the time. Thus it is heavily implied that Lahabrea (possessing Thancred) simply teleported Livia's strike force in and out to avoid suspicion.

Yes i refered to the later. And while im sure they were brutal, lets face it, ala mhigo is a brutal land, you cant get them on a soft way. I dont say its right, but i suppose you cant take that land without major force...


Either ways... I wonder if there will be places that dont want to be freed at all as they come to like their new lifes, especially in places that were taken many years ago...

(Avatar the last Airbender had this in its after story, after one nation took over huge parts of the world... some for almost an century. So after they were defeated not everyone wanted to go back to before, as they grew into their lives as is...)

[EliTheGunbreaker]

Yes i refered to the later. And while im sure they were brutal, lets face it, ala mhigo is a brutal land, you cant get them on a soft way. I dont say its right, but i suppose you cant take that land without major force...


Either ways... I wonder if there will be places that dont want to be freed at all as they come to like their new lifes, especially in places that were taken many years ago...

(Avatar the last Airbender had this in its after story, after one nation took over huge parts of the world... some for almost an century. So after they were defeated not everyone wanted to go back to before, as they grew into their lives as is...)

I am not sure if such a subplot would fit, though I wouldn't exclude it. Earlier EEs mention some provinces being perfectly happy with Garlean rule due to being early conquests, but when it comes to in-game examples, all that we have actually been to have been examples of the Garlean rule being nothing but vicious and exploitative, even with the Legati that are shown to be less evil than the rest the people on top of the Garlean military( Gaius and the Gabranths).

[Veloran]

even with the Legati that are shown to be less evil than the rest the people on top of the Garlean military( Gaius and the Gabranths).

I'm not sure how accurate this is. In Ala Mhigo Nael and then Zenos took over rulership of the country, and in Dalmasca it seems like a pretty large part of the population is happy to support Gabranth rather than the old aristocracy.

[thegreatonemal]

I think you kinda missed the point on Emet. All of Shadowbringers he was like "I like to watch" and "I just want to observe" but the whole time he had plan. Emet is only hands off in the sense that he did the plotting behind your back.

I think you missed the point. The man said himself. He just sows the seeds and lets people do what they want he doesn't interfere directly unless needed. He was also very open about his plotting, just the fact that he was doing it not what his plan was though.


@above Gaius was in control of Ala Mhigo the entire time until ARR. Nael simply had the lead on the second invasion after the battle of Slivertear. She wasn't in control of the city.

[ObsidianFire]

For better or for worse, hammering out the timeline of Garlemald's conquests is... hard to do with how scattered all the info is in both the games and the lore books... Here's the best I've managed to do for all the events that have actual dates attached...

6th Astral Era
1513 - Solus (Emet-Selch) introduces magitek into the Garlean military
1515 - Garlemald starts conquering Ilsabard
1520 - Giaus van Baelsar is born
1522 - Ilsabard is conquered and the Garlean Empire is founded
1531 - Varis zos Galvus is born
???? - The XIVth Legion is formed under Giaus van Baelsar, former Tribunus Angusticlavius of the XIth Legion
1543 - Nero tol Scaeva and Cid nan Carlod are born
1551 - Livia sas Junis and Zenos yae Galvus are born (yes, they are the same age)
1553 - The XIVth Legion gets to that Ala Mhigan/Ilsabardian border
1557 - The XIVth Legion succeeds in annexing Ala Mhigo for the Empire
???? - Giaus van Baelsar shuts down Black Rose and probably takes in Cid and Livia (and presumably his other kids) around this time
1562 - Battle of Silvertear Skies, Baelsar's Wall is constructed, Bozja is destoryed by Dalamud, Cid nan Garlod defects to Eorzea and founds the Ironworks (this was a very busy and important year!)
1572 - Events of 1.0

7th Umbral Era
- The XIVth Legion builds their Eorzean Castra with the backing of the Garlean Empire.
- Giaus van Baelsaur does not immediately begin the Eorzean conquest as he doesn’t have a means of dealing with the primals he knows will be summoned.
- Livia sas Junis and part of the XIVth Legion are dispatched to Dalmasca to quell anti-Garlean uprisings (helping Noah van Gilbranth I'm assuming)
- The Crania Lupi (Skulls) are formed under the XIVth Legion.
- Nero tol Scavea restores Ultima Weapon.
- Giaus van Baelsaur lets Varis zos Galvus, the High Legatus, know that he can conquer Eorzea now that he has a means of dealing with primals. Varis orders Giaus not to conquer Eorzea, but Gaius does it anyway; this results in him and the entire XIVth Legion going AWOL.
- Giaus van Baelsaur first meets Lahabrea.

7th Astral Era
- Operation Archon takes place. While the Eorzean Alliance blockades the XIVth Legion’s castra, they ultimately leave them alone. The only castra to really suffer heavy damage is Castrum Meridianum when Lahabrea casts Ultima.
- In the wake of Operation Archon, Zenos and the XIIth Legion take over Gyr Abania and absorb the remaining personal of the XIVth Legion into their own. This would include all the personal from Ala Mhigo to Castrum Oriens and Baelsar’s Wall as well as the Skulls.
- As of the Keeper of the Lake dungeon (2.5), part of the XIVth Legion is still cut off from Garlamald. This is probably true for all of the XIVth Legion in the castra west of Baelsar’s Wall.

I actually need to go in and add the data from the Werlyt quests to this. But we do know that it took the XIVth Legion several years to annex Ala Mhigo (four to be exact) and even after all that... it took them ten years to even try to conquer the other Eorzea city-states the first time. Which failed due to Midgardsormr's intervention. And even after that, it takes another ten years for Nael to try to conquer Eorzea again. The effort to take Aldenard over certainly isn't fast or quick on the Garlean's end. It's... kinda not hard to see why Eorzea got lazy in the... twenty years since Ala Mhigo's annexation about Garlemald. For all they knew, Garlemald had decided they weren't worth the effort to conquer!

What is interesting is that Gaius wasn't willing to conquer Eorzea until he had a method to deal with Primals. He knew they were the real problem he was going to have to deal with. For all that he uses the Ultima Weapon to force an ultimatum against the Eorzean City-States, the real benefit of the Ultima Weapon is that it can contain Primals and keep them from tempering people and being summoned. Which had... never been done before to a primal in recent times! And for five years, there had been no one who was fighting against Primals who couldn't be Tempered by them on Eorzea's side. So... from Gaius' perspecive, the Ultima Weapon is the solution to a huge problem Eorzea has (failing to deal with Primals) and they would have a very good reason to put themselves under him (they join the Garlean Empire under Gaius in exchange for his anti-primal weapon making primals not a problem). Also... given what the rest of Garlemald is like... being under Gaius assuming the Empire is going to win is not the worst place to end up in. Only thing is... Ultima Weapon has a completely different purpose and Eorzea does have an anti-primal weapon of their own now (WoL). And that changes the situation entirely.

When it comes to Gaius' current activities. Gaius has told us he actually did plan to die at the Praetorium. We beat him, he knew it and he'd rather suffer a graceful defeat he knows he deserved than continue fighting a war he knew he was going to eventually lose. And then he thought of all his subordinates who had died because they were loyal to him (rather than the Empire) who he'd... pretty much gotten killed by following an Ascian's advice. And that ticked him off as their deaths would be... basically worthless if he didn't do anything with the information he now had about the Ascians' motivations. As he was leaving the Praetorium, he came upon Valdeaulin, who had a serious beef with Gaius over stuff that happened in Gyr Abania and wants to kill Gaius over that. Gaius manages to talk Valdeaulin out of it by telling him what Gaius plans on doing against the Ascians and Valdeaulin is... pragmatic enough... to realize that'll keep a lot of other innocent people from being killed in the long run. So he tells Gaius he'll both be helping Gaius with that and that if Gaius starts doing the whole conquering nations thing again... Valdeaulin will kill him.

It's worth pointing out that... most of the (sane) Garleans we've seen are still loyal to the idea of a Garlean State of some kind. That is where all of them grew up and all of them are from. They just don't like the way it is currently being run. Especially not with Zenos of all people at the helm and it being plunged into its... 2nd Civil war in a very short time-frame. Really, the last thing any of them want is for Garlemald to cease to exist as a political/cultural entity. Because then there's nowhere for them to go again and it is a fact that until the Garlean Republic was formed... all of Garlean history is about them being chased from one place to another. Until they were pushed so far north there wasn't any more land for them to run to and that's where they finally made their stand and established their nation. And yet people still kept trying to push them out.

Now, how a transition from the current-day Garlemald to whatever comes next is going to go... someone's going to have to take charge somehow who wants a transition to happen that everyone is going to want to listen too. And they probably aren't going to be able to make that happen without the use/threat of force in some kind of way. Military force has been the main deciding factor in Garlean politics for... the last 60 years or so. And the number of people we know of who would be up for that kind of role/job... are pretty thin on the ground.

[Kesey]

I think you missed the point. The man said himself. He just sows the seeds and lets people do what they want he doesn't interfere directly unless needed. He was also very open about his plotting, just the fact that he was doing it not what his plan was though.


@above Gaius was in control of Ala Mhigo the entire time until ARR. Nael simply had the lead on the second invasion after the battle of Slivertear. She wasn't in control of the city.

No, you still missed the point. If Emet was just sowing the seeds he would have left us alone on the first instead of following us around, encouraging us to absorb the light of light wardens to become a light warden ourselves. Why even reveal Amaurot? Or the information about Hydaelyn and Zodiark being primals? He was interfering directly, under the "guise" of he's not, so as to get his rejoining.

[Veloran]

If Emet was just sowing the seeds he would have left us alone on the first instead of following us around, encouraging us to absorb the light of light wardens to become a light warden ourselves.

That's literally a case of "don't tell me what to do I'm already doing it" though. If he was so dead-set on interfering directly he could have just possessed Varis and ordered the deployment of Black Rose himself, but he didn't. For every Calamity we know the events of the Ascians primarily just seem to set up dominos then let them fall, the one who seems to have had no problems getting directly involved was Lahabrea. Of course Emet was fine with influencing and prodding things, but it's only at the very end he offers his ultimatum and decides to see how things will turn out.

[ObsidianFire]

Varis: Our homeland was plunged into civil war for your failure to name a successor. The edifice you so carefully constructed was but a hair's breadth from collapse!

Solus (Emet-Selch): Are you truly so naive? You thought me oblivious to the consequences? Of a departure so painstakingly timed?

Varis: ...It was by design!?

Solus (Emet-Selch): But of course it was! Though I will admit the resulting panic exceeded even my wildest expectations. But how can you be surprised? Throwing the world into disarray was the very purpose for which this nation was, as you say, "so carefully constructed".

Emet-Selch set things up so that his death as "Solus" would happen while he had declared no "official" heir just to destabilize Garlemald into a civil war within the Royal Family. And then when he saw an opportunity to start yet another Calamity (because apparently the 7th Umbral Calamity wasn't enough for him) he eggs Varis on until he sets it up. The entire conversation between Varis and Emet-Selch (the very first time we meet Emet-Selch!) has Emet-Selch telling Varis that it's not Varis' job to think; just to do what Emet-Slech tells him to do... which by the time of 5.4 is to use Black Rose while causing a huge war (since that can cause the 8th Umbral Calamity). Which Varis does in the doomed timeline. The only reason why he can't do it in the "current" timeline... is because Gaius, Alphinaud and Estinian are running around destroying all the stockpiles of Black Rose, which they never got the opportunity to do in the "doomed" timeline.

Incidentally, the reason Emet-Selch doesn't posses Varis is because someone needs to head over to the 1st Shard to make sure it's still on track for a Rejoining when Black Rose goes off. And the Ascians looking over the 1st Shard are now dead... And why waste time possessing someone who has already been manipulated into doing what you want them to do. No one gets on Varis' nerves like Emet-Selch does.