Is anyon else tired of Ascians story?

[Lium]

Elidibus was able to move Unukalhai from the 13th to the source and Cylva from the 13th to 1st.

I never did the Warring Triad but I forgot about Cylva. Still, that seems to raise some inconsistencies. If Elidibus can do that then why didn't he simply take Ardbert and his companions to the Source? Unless he manipulated them into sacrificing themselves so they would no longer be a threat?

[Kesey]

snip.

The over joy at the death of Elidibus is that Fandaniel doesn't have to be loyal to resurrecting Amaurot and his Ancient past. Not that he's been freed from Zodiark. And the whole I want everyone to die and die myself is pretty theatric, just like how he acts in front of Zenos. We haven't seen his true nature.

You're right people aren't born tempered to primals, but the Ascians have a further step where they use the soul crystals that instill past memories to raise you up to an Ascian. If Ascians are tempered to Zodiark, as Emet said, then this is most logical place the "tempering" happens.

Also, when Emet helps the WOL with the Elidibus fight, it's for the sake of Elidibus, not the WOL. Emet once mused what Elidibus would be like when he was gone and that it would be a bad time for him. Emet wants his friend to find rest, not repeat the crazy primal mind washing without the unsundered's guidence. Which really isn't against Zodiark, as one of the other remaining Ascians can get the rejoining, genocide the world population and resurrect Emet and Elidibus as per the original plan.

The echo lets the WOL cross back and forth between shards. If Ryne had the echo like Minfillia, then she would be capable of the same thing, even if the summoning spell was needed in the first place. They purposefully didn't give Ryne Minfillia's echo so they didn't have to explore the plot point of her wanting to go the source with the other Scions.

[Cilia]

People are able to cross the Rift (Shard hop), but under normal circumstances that requires sacrificing one's physical body. Neither Unukalhai nor Cylva are exceptions to this.

The only known exception is the PC, as they had a hole punched in reality by G'raha specifically for that purpose. G'raha himself is a partial example, having gotten around the "living matter" clause by binding himself to the Crystal Tower and partially crystallizing his body.

[Lium]

People are able to cross the Rift (Shard hop), but under normal circumstances that requires sacrificing one's physical body. Neither Unukalhai nor Cylva are exceptions to this.

The only known exception is the PC, as they had a hole punched in reality by G'raha specifically for that purpose. G'raha himself is a partial example, having gotten around the "living matter" clause by binding himself to the Crystal Tower and partially crystallizing his body.

Thanks. I was certain you had to give up your bodies because that was the whole point of the Warriors of Darkness story in Heavensward. Alphinaud even says to Ardbert, "If you're here, that would mean you would have had to...had to..."

So I thought giving up your physical body was a requirement unless you were the PC, who needed G'raha's help to be able to do it.

[Veloran]

The over joy at the death of Elidibus is that Fandaniel doesn't have to be loyal to resurrecting Amaurot and his Ancient past. Not that he's been freed from Zodiark. And the whole I want everyone to die and die myself is pretty theatric, just like how he acts in front of Zenos. We haven't seen his true nature.

He specifically says he's free from his "damnable duty" and that now he's "free at last to live for the moment". It's a very narrow interpretation to say that can only be referring to resurrecting Amaurot.

You're right people aren't born tempered to primals, but the Ascians have a further step where they use the soul crystals that instill past memories to raise you up to an Ascian. If Ascians are tempered to Zodiark, as Emet said, then this is most logical place the "tempering" happens.

To give memories yes, we're never told this changes the very nature of their souls like tempering does. In fact it's not even their own memories, it's memories the Unsundered had of them, so I really don't see how they could be tempered just by using that to awaken memories. Again, it appears from both Mitron and Gaia this isn't the case.

Also, when Emet helps the WOL with the Elidibus fight, it's for the sake of Elidibus, not the WOL. Emet once mused what Elidibus would be like when he was gone and that it would be a bad time for him. Emet wants his friend to find rest, not repeat the crazy primal mind washing without the unsundered's guidence. Which really isn't against Zodiark, as one of the other remaining Ascians can get the rejoining, genocide the world population and resurrect Emet and Elidibus as per the original plan.

This is some really extreme mental gymnastics to try and avoid the fact that Emet saved the life of Hydaelyn's champion and one of Zodiark's biggest enemies so that you could defeat Zodiark's last remaining primary servant and his once-heart. It's all well and good that Emet was doing it to end the suffering of his friend but that doesn't change the fact that he was acting directly against Zodiark. You can't just say he was able to think "well whatever someone else will do it" and so suddenly he remains tempered but it doesn't affect his choices or actions at all, that just renders tempering completely irrelevant from the outset as long as someone can vaguely justify something in their head.

The echo lets the WOL cross back and forth between shards. If Ryne had the echo like Minfillia, then she would be capable of the same thing, even if the summoning spell was needed in the first place. They purposefully didn't give Ryne Minfillia's echo so they didn't have to explore the plot point of her wanting to go the source with the other Scions.

WoL can cross back and forth because G'raha summoned him. Cylva and Unukalhai can cross because they're effectively bodiless spirits like the Ascians. Gaia can potentially cross but she'd need to lose her flesh in the process like the WoDs and Ascians, the same as Ryne would even if she were to have the Echo.

[Rosenstrauch]

People are able to cross the Rift (Shard hop), but under normal circumstances that requires sacrificing one's physical body. Neither Unukalhai nor Cylva are exceptions to this.

The only known exception is the PC, as they had a hole punched in reality by G'raha specifically for that purpose. G'raha himself is a partial example, having gotten around the "living matter" clause by binding himself to the Crystal Tower and partially crystallizing his body.

This is the case, but I'm fairly sure G'raha's exception came down to the use of Omega's technology rather than crystallization. There were a lot of things living in Syrcus Tower other than himself, if the Twinning and certain Lakeland mobs are any indication.

But yeah, even the Ascians have to give up their bodies/current vessels in order to cross over between worlds. Gaia would have to be the same way, though perhaps there'd be something in Syrcus Tower that'd keep her body preserved for her while she's away from it. But then, wouldn't the same hold true for Ryne? Minfilia was able to make the journey unassisted, and circumstances notwithstanding she expected to make a return trip later down the line. From what I understand this ability to move between reflections unaided comes from the Echo, which Ryne should have if she's a reincarnation of Minfilia (or if their souls are shards of the same original soul).

And the thing is, I don't believe that's actually the case. But I also believe it's far too late to reveal that if 5.5 is going to be Ryne's last appearance. And it's especially too late if we've already seen the last of her. I feel like I'm barking up the wrong tree with this line of speculation.

[Cilia]

---

There are a lot of living things down in the Twinning, but most (if not all) of them are either mechanical or vat-grown monsters. Such things crossing or being grown after arrival is completely understandable.

Minfilia was able to cross over to the First, but only with Hydaelyn's assistance, and she still had to sacrifice her body to do it (or rather sacrificed her body as fuel for Hydaelyn between 2.55 and 3.2). That was the whole reason she possessed girls on the First, creating the cycle of Oracles until she sacrificed her soul to give Ryne a chance at a normal life after everything was said and done. Ryne herself does not have the Echo as, to our knowledge, she is not a First counterpart to Minfilia the way Ardbert was to us, though thanks to Minfilia's influence she does appear to have immunity to tempering. She is (was) just a random girl Minfilia possessed.

Some of those details require a close eye for detail and aren't made a big deal of. But that's what it is!

[Rosenstrauch]

Where I think we're disagreeing on this is that I don't think it's one of those "is what it is, not a big deal" things. I think it's a big loaded gun on the mantle that the writers have been waiting for the right moment to fire off.

To use my favorite "What the hell were they thinking?" bit: 5.2's On Thin Ice ought to have gone a lot differently if even a single character present believed Ryne didn't have the Echo. But nobody says anything about it. Nobody expresses any concern that Ryne might be tempered by Shiva during the summoning. Nobody says she won't be able to control the primal without the Echo. When Ryne immediately loses control, it's treated as a surprise. And at the end of it all, when Ryne blames Shiva being too powerful for her inability to control it, nobody bothers to correct her.

I don't think they know. I don't think they're supposed to know. And if they did know, I'd say every legal adult present ought to have a restraining order put on them, 'cause letting her do that knowing she's going to fail is pretty screwed up.

And this sort of thing goes back all the way to the very introduction of the Oracle of Light. Everyone seems to think the girls are reincarnations of the original Minfilia. Nobody corrects them. Even Emet-Selch, who ought to have a little more insight into the process, seems convinced of it. When he bothers to offer his thoughts on the matter, it's not "Oh, you're not a reincarnation at all" but "One of you needs to consume the other". Which... really does not make sense if the two girls aren't sharing the same soul. There's no reason Minfilia can't just let go of her and let her live her own life. It's not like she couldn't make like an Ascian and possess a corpse. Heck, the WoL would probably even be willing to timeshare their body if she just asked. Hell, Ran'jit would've probably been willing to do the same back before he became jaded from watching so many little girls die under his care. But she's dead set on forcing her burden on this girl—either by pulling a Lahabrea on her or getting her to accept her Minfilia-appointed duty willingly.

That's why I believe it's a Chekov's Gun. Nobody other than Minfilia herself—and maybe Ryne—knows the girl isn't really her reincarnation. Ryne herself seems convinced Minfilia is still within her, even though she really shouldn't be if things are as they appear to be. And sooner or later, that gun's going to go off and the girl's going to be faced with...

… nothing at all, because her story is over. Which makes me wonder if all the circumstantial evidence pointing to this hypothesis is just a weird accident.

EDIT: As for the Twinning, here's the S-Rank Mark Tyger's description.

Sightings of this particular mark are first recorded in the days following the Flood of Light. When the doors of the tower that stands at the center of the Crystarium first opened, it is written that the Tyger came barreling forth like a shot from a cannon. But despite its grand entrance, it behaved little different than any other wild beast, devouring livestock and attacking hapless travelers. It rather likes meat, though it has a clear preference for poultry by all accounts. I can't say I entirely trust the accounts of its origin, but given its unusual appearance, I would be not at all surprised if it was indeed a creature come from another world.

And this is Tyger:

To my knowledge, Tyger is the only Chimera to be seen on the First, strongly implying that it came from the Eighth Era Source along with Syrcus Tower.

[Veloran]

I still wonder if we won't see more of Ryne and Gaia in the future. The Void Quests seem posed as a sort of alternate-MSQ with the "Scions" of the First, and I very much hope they continue into 5.5 and beyond as new storyline content.

[Rosenstrauch]

I still wonder if we won't see more of Ryne and Gaia in the future. The Void Quests seem posed as a sort of alternate-MSQ with the "Scions" of the First, and I very much hope they continue into 5.5 and beyond as new storyline content.

I hope so, too. I really can't get enough of those girls. I'd love to see and learn more of the Thirteenth, as well.

… but this thread was supposed to be about Ascians, wasn't it? I feel I should apologize for this bizarre Minfilia/Ryne derailment, seeing as I was the one who kicked it off. But I guess folks really are bored of the Ascians, if it carried on for as long as it did.