Prohibit class/job changes inside dungeons

[Asiaine]

There is one tiny little thing to keep in mind:
If your WHM DCs do you restart the dungeon or have someone switch to WHM and push on?

[HiirNoivl]

One of the largest problems with balancing FFXIV right now is the exclusions of classes/jobs in dungeons due to their lack of function to achieve speed runs.

Preventing class/job changing inside dungeons accomplishes several things including but not limited to the following:

• Prevents the exclusion of certain classes
• Increases the available balancing of classes/jobs
• Strengthens class/job identity
• Does not require everyone to level up each class/job to fill any spot
• Increases the accessibility of play for everyone (even those that have every class leveled)
• Creates more engaging and challenging content, rather than content that is simply steamrolled via class stacking
• Allows more development freedom for content creation and balancing

Switching classes during an instance appears to be one of the two primary reasons for class exclusion. The other reason are the inherent flaws built into a speed run itself.

Does this hurt the overall strength of the armory system? The answer is no. The armory system itself is a great opportunity to build characters, the problem is that the game is setup so you literally have to level every class up to not be excluded. Although the ability of switching during dungeons will be removed, the flexibility and innovation of the armory system is still present via jobs, allowing people who have multiple classes leveled up able to fit ANY spot in the dungeon, and overall increasing the ability for people to enjoy the classes that they prefer/want to play -- rather than mandating they level every single class.

My main issue with this idea is that it's trying to fix a problem that exists only in the OP's mind and not in the game.

1)This idea won't prevent the exclusion of classes/jobs from dungeons. That's a community issue. they will continue to exclude classes even if this were implemented.

2)It won't increase class/job identity. Jobs actually have done that already and the issue of identity (BLMs healing tank or MNKs tanking) doesn't really exist with the exception of the PLD/WAR relationship and that's going to be fixed by balancing the classes, not changing how dungeons are run. Which addresses the 3rd bullet.

4) No one is required to level up multiple classes or jobs. They feel peer pressure to do so, but in truth, there's no requirement out of the game itself. The Peer Pressure will remain even if this is implemented.

5) Everyone can play all the content in the game so long as their level is high enough. There is no accessibility problem.

6) Changing how dungeons are run so that no one can change class/job in instance creates 0 content. It encourages class stacking because parties lose all flexibility once they enter.

7) This is basically a rehash of bullet 3

The primary reason for class exclusion is the personal preference of players and the purpose of the party. If you don't want a class stacked speed run, don't join a party where a speed run is the goal. If you can't find said party, make your own.

[NoctisUmbra]

The problem isn't the job-switching. It's the speed-runs.

If they want to lock jobs, they better remove speed-run only loot first.

[PunkRocker]

The problem isn't the job-switching. It's the speed-runs.

If they want to lock jobs, they better remove speed-run only loot first.

Agreed x999999999999999

Dungeons are already extremely boring in this game, run through sleep crap or aoe it all down kill boss 1, repeat, kill boss 2. Speed runs make it even worse using the same jobs every single time. These new dungeons got pretty old quick, i would like to see more than 2 bosses in the future, remove the dungeon timer completely if needed, and lets add a little more variety than run through sleep it all, stand on lights woooooooooo.

Honestly they will have to fix the horrible combat system before the dungeons will get any better. It would also be nice if they got rid of the base classes and just kept the jobs. I think it will ruin new jobs in the future by having to link them to the base classes and hurt the uniqueness of the new jobs.

Smaller party size would also be something nice to see in the future, would help your role in the group stand out more, and would help people who play during odd times to get groups started easier.

[Jinko]

Just remove speed runs they are kind of pointless anyway, of course this won't stop class stacking people will still go after the faster way to clear a dungeon.

There are several things they can do:-

1:- What the OP suggests, lock a player to the class they enter the instance as (this would actual be useful for the Job Quests also, seeing as people managed a way around that)

2:- Give each class an aura, meaning a more varied party make up will ensure better party buffs. (this would probably require removing strength in numbers and comradery) - Aura's can not stack from two of the same class.

3:- Remove strength in number and comradery if 3 or more of one class type is detected.

[NoctisUmbra]

Just remove speed runs they are kind of pointless anyway, of course this won't stop class stacking people will still go after the faster way to clear a dungeon.

There are several things they can do:-

1:- What the OP suggests, lock a player to the class they enter the instance as (this would actual be useful for the Job Quests also, seeing as people managed a way around that)

2:- Give each class an aura, meaning a more varied party make up will ensure better party buffs. (this would probably require removing strength in numbers and comradery) - Aura's can not stack from two of the same class.

3:- Remove strength in number and comradery if 3 or more of one class type is detected.

Nah, they don't need to punish players for stacking. They should just stop encouraging it by designing fights that are more balanced in difficulty across classes and stop the speedrun shenanigans.

Speed runs are an awesome idea as a Lodestone Achievement. A horrible idea as access to exclusive loot.

[Jinko]

Yea I'm not a fan of punishing them either, I think the current party buff system is kind of rubbish to say the least, I have started another thread as to not high-jack this one.

[Tibian]

My main issue with this idea is that it's trying to fix a problem that exists only in the OP's mind and not in the game.

You're completely ignorant of the rest of the forum posts, especially if you cannot see the following thread: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-and-the-Guard which has garnered 78 likes and counting to fix the rampant classism that clearly doesn't exist only in my head.

1)This idea won't prevent the exclusion of classes/jobs from dungeons. That's a community issue. they will continue to exclude classes even if this were implemented.

Sure it will, especially if the fights and dungeons are created to favorite a variety of classes to PREVENT job stacking.

2)It won't increase class/job identity. Jobs actually have done that already and the issue of identity (BLMs healing tank or MNKs tanking) doesn't really exist with the exception of the PLD/WAR relationship and that's going to be fixed by balancing the classes, not changing how dungeons are run. Which addresses the 3rd bullet.

Again, no idea what you're talking about here because classes/jobs still need a big boost to identities. Every class still works via "BUILD TP SPAM MOVE!" some classes can be better at AOE with decent solo target dps (BLM/War) while others should excel at single target DPS with marginal AOE dps (Monk/Bard). A good and well rounded group should have massive advantages over stacking a particular class.

4) No one is required to level up multiple classes or jobs. They feel peer pressure to do so, but in truth, there's no requirement out of the game itself. The Peer Pressure will remain even if this is implemented.

You're right on this one. Nobody is straight up "required" to level up. The peer pressure is simply efficiency caused by how the fights are created. This measure is a countermeasure to alleviate the pseudo-forced requirement to level up every job.

5) Everyone can play all the content in the game so long as their level is high enough. There is no accessibility problem.

Again, I agree with limitations. I've heard and read several complaints where groups do not want to take a person with only Monk, or only BLM, or only WAR to dungeons. This is pretty restrictive and cuts accessibility. If all people are doing are speed runs, it is limiting the accessibility for those that want to do the dungeons. Finding a linkshell that doesn't "exclude" people isn't also a viable option, so please don't state it in subsequent posts as a valid retort.

6) Changing how dungeons are run so that no one can change class/job in instance creates 0 content. It encourages class stacking because parties lose all flexibility once they enter.

I don't understand this because every other MMO manages to have dungeons that have a wide berth of content without multiple class/job switches during the run. It allows developers to come up with innovative fights rather than just worry about resistances and damage types.

The primary reason for class exclusion is the personal preference of players and the purpose of the party. If you don't want a class stacked speed run, don't join a party where a speed run is the goal. If you can't find said party, make your own.

Clearly ignorant of party play. People want to do speed runs. Don't punish them for having leveled up the classes they only want to play.

[Isaaru]

and this is really bad

Well I mean I get to use WAR, BRD, BLM, MNK, and DRG (no whm for me I hate it) in the dungeons, I just use what my LS needs though. WAR is great to have on Princess, 1 DRG is great to have on Princess as well, MNK is awesome on Miser, BLM is great on Coincounter and Chimera. BRD I will full time for swiftsong awesomeness.

Jobs are so easy to level up now I don't see the issue with playing more than 1 of them especially when you can do a speed run more than fine with just JSE and NQ accessories. IMO the way they balanced jobs is better than having each job be just as useful because let me tell you if this were like FFXI there would be 1 job that outshined the rest and then people would be even more restricted on which job they played. Balance is hard to achieve, but SE did a pretty good job with the job system (except for PLD of course).

[Tibian]

Just remove speed runs they are kind of pointless anyway, of course this won't stop class stacking people will still go after the faster way to clear a dungeon.

There are several things they can do:-

1:- What the OP suggests, lock a player to the class they enter the instance as (this would actual be useful for the Job Quests also, seeing as people managed a way around that)

2:- Give each class an aura, meaning a more varied party make up will ensure better party buffs. (this would probably require removing strength in numbers and comradery) - Aura's can not stack from two of the same class.

3:- Remove strength in number and comradery if 3 or more of one class type is detected.

I thought about point two as a suggestion earlier on before I posted this. In the end I opted against it. If you increase Ranged accuracy via Bard, people will just stack ranged. If you increase MP regeneration via BLM, people will just stack BLM.

If bullet point two is to work, these bonuses need to be attributed to non-similar classes. Ie: Increased MP regeneration should be attached to WAR. Increased Ranged accuracy should be attached to BLM. Increased Defense should be attached to WHM. So on and so forth. This encourages a dynamic group makeup, but still would mean people could go "Tank/Healer/WAR/BLM/BLM/BLM/BLM/BLM." It also mandates that you should have a party of "every" class. I don't want to see a static one dimensional party of "PLD/WAR/BLM/BRD/WHM/MNK/DRG/Random Job," although it would still be more desirable than job stacking. Party makeup should be flexible. A group consisting of PLD/WAR/BLM/BLM/WHM/WHM/MNK/DRG should be just as capable of doing something as WAR/WAR/WHM/WHM/DRG/BRD/MNK/DRG. Ultimately I still decided against this method.

Bullet point three is also a suggestion, but I am not sure the removed bonuses would matter that much. I know on Coincounter it might cause an issue... but other fights I can't see this as a viable option.

Which still leaves point one as the most probable option for fixing classism and exclusions.

I like your ideas and suggestions though. Just needs a bit more fleshing out.