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  1. #21
    Player
    ssunny2008's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    577
    Character
    Micela Arzur
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    Pugilist Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by MercuryD View Post
    Before going off on a rant you should actually read the responses that people have had. All you are saying to me is that you're a new player who learned to play at the 5.X play style and don't want it to change. Not liking change, fine, but don't try to belittle those who have experience with the jobs who can see and understand the improvements that were made thanks to this patch.

    Again: this is a tweak, not a rework. Please use the correct term to avoid misinformation.
    Yeah i´m that kind of a new player who is here since 2014.

    What experience do you actually have? And what improvements came with the patch? Not maintaining GL anymore is nothing else but QoL for ppl who can´t use some buttons. Monk has actually lost the speed of FoW, a 30s positional window got changed to a 6s spam button and the opener got overfilled. The only issue with GL was behind a cutszene, nothing more.
    Actually the monk got not improved, it got casualized and some more buttons became even more useless. Just have a look at PB. Ppl found out that you can use 6 attacks with enough speed. Now you´ve tons of time, but it´s still limited to 6 attacks. Is that any improvement for the players who build up their monk for that and maybe "true monk"? No, it´s not. It´s just something for players who can´t hit their buttons in time.
    Those changes are nothing else than the tank-reworks at the beginning of SHB. No DD stances anymore, 3 button rotation and a tankstance for players, who can´t play a simple rotation to hold the boss or adds at their own. Just waiting until SE gets ride off any positional skills to make melee´s completely boring and uninteresting.

    And yeah, i´m talking about a rework. You think this is a tweak?

    - GL gone (the core aspect)
    - FoW gone
    - PB, Anatman, TK, RoE, Brotherhood, SSS, FoF changed
    - Potency increases everywhere

    If that is just a tweak for you, then i don´t know... Next to the 123 button rotation monk plays different, works different and is obviously different than before. Monk worked fine, but i guess it´s always easier to complain until something gets easier instead of learning and playing with the given circumstances.

    And it´s definately not the time to speculate about something, which could be in a year or so. If SE have such big plans, they could´ve waited with the rework until 6.0 and giving us a full and fun rework instead of a forgivable button smasher.
    (3)
    Last edited by ssunny2008; 12-13-2020 at 12:12 PM.

  2. #22
    Player
    ssunny2008's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    577
    Character
    Micela Arzur
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    Pugilist Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by IruruCece View Post
    Look, I'm not a huge fan of the GL change, but uh, the OP themselves is far from an incompetent raider or a bad player of the job based on their youtube, and doubtless there are plenty of players here who feel the same.

    It's a divisive change, and there are folks like me who don't like it, but there are also folks who do like it. There are plenty of legitimate arguments for both. At the end of the day, it's happened, and players will have to figure it out and deal with whatever comes next.
    There were mostly only 2 arguments against the monk, positionals and GL. Both got pretty hard improved with SHB, especially with GL4. But ppl still complained for whatever reason instead of picking another class when monk is obviously not their favorite.
    And yes, it happened, but such things need to stop. It´s a good game and has a lot to offer, but forcing everything to be "braindead" is a no go. There are enough classes and SE could easily design different tiers into them like "dragoon = easy, samurai = mediocre, monk= hard" to play to cater the whole audience. But instead of doing that, everything just become easier in easier, classes, content, pretty much everything.
    Everyone who really wanted to play a decent monk, could´ve read the skills, test stuff by themself, adjust to boss fights or go to google.com and check 1000 guides to learn and improve.

    If something isn´t fun or to hard for you, why would you force it to change when you´ve 16 other options? Monk might have been always a bit in struggle before, but again, SHB monk with PB, RoE, SSS, Anatman, form shift and especially GL4 was fine.
    (1)

  3. #23
    Player
    VentVanitas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Posts
    676
    Character
    Seiko Hanamura
    World
    Kujata
    Main Class
    Black Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by ssunny2008 View Post
    If i read everything here, i highly doubt that anyone of you guys is a decent savage player or have even played monk the last half year.
    Thanks, we all needed a laugh.
    (3)

  4. #24
    Player
    MercuryD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    347
    Character
    Daii Mercury
    World
    Midgardsormr
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by ssunny2008 View Post
    Yeah i´m that kind of a new player who is here since 2014.

    What experience do you actually have? And what improvements came with the patch? Not maintaining GL anymore is nothing else but QoL for ppl who can´t use some buttons. Monk has actually lost the speed of FoW, a 30s positional window got changed to a 6s spam button and the opener got overfilled. The only issue with GL was behind a cutszene, nothing more.
    Actually the monk got not improved, it got casualized and some more buttons became even more useless.

    And yeah, i´m talking about a rework. You think this is a tweak?

    - GL gone (the core aspect)
    - FoW gone
    - PB, Anatman, TK, RoE, Brotherhood, SSS, FoF changed
    - Potency increases everywhere

    If that is just a tweak for you, then i don´t know... Next to the 123 button rotation monk plays different, works different and is obviously different than before.
    Since apparently you\\\\'d like my FFXIV resume... I\\\\'ve played monk as main/co-main since 2.0 doing all BCoB, a few turns of Alex savage, Eden 1-3 on monk. I\\\\'ve done every extreme released except WoL, Emerald and Misera on monk. I\\\\'ve done every dungeon released on monk. I\\\\'ve done every 24-man on monk. But I don\\\\'t have experience? Okay.

    FoW is an absolute non-issue and most/many monk mains really don\\\\'t even count that as a loss. The important thing is keeping GL4 speed, which we did.

    GL was a frankly antiquated mechanic as SE has shown since late SB they\\\\'re going to be releasing long, unavoidable breaks in fights that will result in a MNK being at a vast disadvantage compared to all other DPS. It wasn\\\\'t hard to upkeep otherwise but that\\\\'s not relevant.

    The changes to the abilities were mostly improvements, except Anatman i guess and SSS.

    MNK hasn\\\\'t changed their core rotation since 2.0 (DK, TS, Demo, Boot, True, Snap, repeat with subbing snap for demo on occasion) The ONLY change was for double true which was a net dps loss if you messed up at all anyway.

    SE listened to us in regard to chakra and brotherhood, at least in part. We wanted a way to guarantee chakra to alleviate heavy RNG, we get 100% chance on crit. We want brotherhood damage to effect all damage, not just physical plus give all abilities chance to chakra and they did just that. Sure, we do have overflow of chakra but a change to the guage can fix that in 6.0.

    And yes, this is a tweak, not a rework. Reworks don\\\\'t happen mid patch cycle, they happen on expac launches. I haven\\\\'t seen a single OFFICIAL source call 5.4 a rework, only fan translations. Officially SE said MNK was getting adjusted and that the adjustment are sizeable. Which they are.
    (3)

  5. #25
    Player
    SsCookie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    2
    Character
    Ss Cookie
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 80
    I'm not going to pretend I'm a mod nor am I trying to act like a saint, but please both of you drop this argument right now, as a personal request. There's nothing to gain from arguing and insulting each other.

    I casually play every class and personally for me it was really difficult to figure out my pre-5.4 patch rotation smoothly when I brought my MNK to Alliance Raids. Even after I had a solid idea with the help from 'The Balance' website the adjustment to the changes and keeping track of GL, Twin Snakes, Positionals, everything in general was far more effort I had to put into any class with little reward due to very specific windows compared to the basic rotations of the other classes. In short, the learning curve to MNK just wasn't fun at all and having almost all my job classes to 80 this was my least favorite to relearn when I picked it back up in 5.3.

    Say what you will, but know that this isn't something worth both of your guy's time insulting each other over. We've all worked hard to get where we're at with our characters so I get why both of you are frustrated. Just remember we're all are on the same fanbase, so we all represent it in some aspect. Plus this doesn't help the person who genuinely needs to read constructive feedback for the development team.

    Edit: I'm new to the forms so I forgot to actually quote the two people but yes this post was intended for Ssunny2008 and MercuryD to read if they had the time.
    (1)
    Last edited by SsCookie; 12-13-2020 at 03:08 PM.

  6. #26
    Player
    MercuryD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    347
    Character
    Daii Mercury
    World
    Midgardsormr
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by SsCookie View Post
    I'm not going to pretend I'm a mod nor am I trying to act like a saint, but please both of you drop this argument right now, as a personal request. There's nothing to gain from arguing and insulting each other.
    I understand what you're saying and appreciate the sentiment. There's no argument on my part, I've said all this before on another page. My reason for responding was to clarify some, in my opinion, misconceptions and provide information as to why I see them as such.

    The FFXIV resume thing was pretty cheeky, I'll admit that. I thought it was clever at the time
    (1)

  7. #27
    Player
    Kahnom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Posts
    1,616
    Character
    Arlizz Teirez
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 90
    To be honest, I kinda like the old MNK. Without GL to maintains, I feel the job is lacking something.
    Of course, losing stacks because of cutscences or mechanics are annoying but MNK that has no GL to maintain is ... well, doesn’t feel like MNK anymore.
    All veteran MNKs know that the only way to evolve MNK is by making the job harder, like more intense positioning , or manipulating GL stacks for maximize damages. Stormblood MNK’s openner, for example, was the right direction to evolve MNK but got thrown away real fast.
    Just thinking about it for a sec, Tornado kick opener + GL4 + ability that grants 3 GL stacks instantly or even new skill that cost 2 GL stacks for insane damage or new combo weapon skill that grants 2 GL stacks instead of one.
    All these possibilities are just in front of us but it’s out of the window now since GL was gone.
    In the end, this rework might please some players but it obviously not the evolution we’ve been looking for.
    ...
    ...
    Now I completely understand how the old main MCH & DRK felt .......
    (1)

  8. #28
    Player
    Raikai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    3,502
    Character
    Arlo Nine-tails
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 90
    Finally Monk is enjoyable for me, given the riddance of Greased Lightning stacking. I think that was way too punishing because of the positional aspect of the job... Said that, Monk feels pretty raw right now, but that was to be expected to be honest. They are just probably setting the groundwork for an actual revamp in 6.0, because I'd think it would be too unrealistic to expect such a thing when ShB is going to its end.

    My hopes and personal wishes for further improvement to the current kit in 6.0 are:
    - A tracker for Twin Snakes and Demolish built in the job gauge.
    - The job gauge itself features a tiger... Why not a different frame to signal the form you're currently in? If by some reason you have to interrupt your rotation, it's a good way to glance and see what stage you're at.
    - Shoulder Tackle damage componenet replaced with a stun or a slow. It might be just me, but I hate when OGCDs movement utility abilities are tied to damage, because it's never up when you actually need to move, as you have to weave them in for the dmg.
    - I think Fists of Earth and Wind really need a buff on what they do, because it's almost worthless to swap Fists for their utility. SSS gives a movement buff... Why not let that buff change according to the Fist you're at?
    - The Forbidden Chakra, it would be great if it had the same range of Enlightment or even a 15yr range. This would be amazing to have some damage to do while out of range running from stuff.
    - Arm of the Destroyer moved to below level 20. It's a major pain to partake in Roulettes that take you to a low level dungeon and you simply don't even have an AoE.

    Of course, I'm also expecting some new mechanic to replace the complexity lost with GL stacks. I wonder what they have in mind, since it's basically a new thing. Maybe they can expand Fists functionality and interactivity, or maybe a new fourth animal form?
    (0)
    Last edited by Raikai; 12-14-2020 at 01:19 AM.

  9. #29
    Player
    Gravagar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    107
    Character
    Amanogawa Murasaki
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 80
    Keeping in mind that this is just "part 1" of the monk rework, I'm glad to see this. It's probably lacking some important polish still... But, this IS one of the most comprehensive reworks of any job outside of a new expansion launch we've ever seen. Considering how lacking in polish in it was on this expansion's launch, though, I am glad it has gotten some now, rather than 6 months from now. Now, you've got something to look forward to with the next expansion, since you know "part 2" is coming and it's not going to be... whatever it was they thought they were doing in 5.0.


    I'm hoping positive vibes about this change of tactics reach SE, so that they do it again for different jobs. Because no job should be left in a cruddy state for 2 years, without hope of any triage, just because it's not on-brand to do so until a somewhat arbitrary and excessively long amount of time has passed.
    (0)

  10. #30
    Player
    Ariel_Valmont's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Posts
    324
    Character
    Bella Ciao
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by ssunny2008 View Post
    If i read everything here, i highly doubt that anyone of you guys is a decent savage player or have even played monk the last half year. Monk has changed and not for the best when we talk about raids. Everything else is not even worth to talk about since dungeons or other stuff are pretty much "no brainer" anyway.

    So what is so good actually?

    - Less movement speed since you´ve to stuck on fists of fire, which makes mechanics and positionals harder and that on the only melee class without a descent escape / backjump, which needs the highest boss uptime with less than 2s GCD?
    - To spam RoE every 6s to have even a chance to do positional - damage in a lot of mechanics especially in the new raids? Meanwhile the 10% dmg.red. becomes pretty much useless?
    - To have a pretty much overfilled opener with all the off gcd´s and random proccs?

    I guess that´s NOT good.

    All you care about is, that GL is gone. What was the issue with it? A cutszene? Improvisation and it was up pretty fast again. And if you died... well... you died. It´s not the games fault that you died obviously.
    Maintaining GL was a completely standard function if you played your rotation and used button X in moment X aka anatman or seven sided star. What was so hard? Yet we have a button spamming class without a soul, which is pretty horrible to play in the new raids and i don´t even want to try E8s with its mechanics where 30s RoE was pretty much needed. Slower movement + boss dancing + RoE spamming + rotation, yeah thx square enix, well played....
    All what you see is: "Yey no more form shift in dungeons or losing stacks when i die.", but that´s definately not all.

    Imagine SE would´ve implemented a stack-safe-option for cutszenes instead of doing some horrible changes, we would still have a smooth class instead of that a clunky buttonspammer. And calling it a "decent ground for 6.0" or whatever, yeah... a patch which comes in 8 or 9 months, maybe even later? Good to reveal this unfinished "rework" for the last tier of shadowbringers. Brainless button smashing is sooo muuuuch fuuuun.
    This person gets it.
    (1)

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