Too much memorization, not enough RNG on raid fights

[Roda]

No, Learn the mechanics or leave. Simple as that.

There's a difference between "learn how mechanics work" and "memorize these 100+ places to stand over the course of a 10 minute fight" It's not hard, but it's also not that engaging if that's all you've been doing for 7 years.

[Vickii]

So...learn the mechanics, and don't get one-shotted in the future. That's how most everyone learns. That isn't even a "WoW elitist" thing, which I am not by the way, though I have played WoW. That is just common sense. Obviously everyone learns at a different pace, so it might be somewhat difficult for some to catch on to, but it isn't an impossible task. I have seen many raids come back from a near wipe in this game, mostly because there is a lot of forgiveness in the design. Someone dies? Healers can get them back up. Got a RDM? They can resurrect 2 players in a matter of seconds. The normal modes in this game provide a lot of room for trial and error, even to the brink of a full wipe, but can still be recovered. Eden's Promise...even more so. Again, it's the easiest normal tier in recent and not so recent memory. But sure, I guess I'm an elitist because I view things objectively.

Your literal argument was ‘I don’t find this hard so it’s easy and everyone can do it’.

That’s a weak argument. I also played wow and raided at a high level weekly. I often die here because a boss will do a random knockback off a ledge which you simply don’t remember if you don’t do it regularly enough without fail.

There is no ‘getting better’ in FFXIV. Simply you just have to remember what mechanics happen and when. It’s why anyone who tries it enough can clear savage and most people who try a boss for the first time die. Too many silly mechanics.

However your argument has changed and you’re now talking about healers and RDM ressing. To which yeah I’d agree with you. There’s less wipes in this tier than in previous ones. Still too many cheap deaths though.

[Khalithar]

The issue of memorization vs reactive is something I've noticed since I started clearing savage in Stormblood.

Having to memorize a long sequence across 10-14 minutes is getting tiresome. Memorizing "the dance" for all the bosses and seeing the party execute it does provide it's own level of satisfaction and can be really fun to watch and see after hours of dying and mastering mechanics one by one.

That being said, I wouldn't mind a bit more reactive gameplay that tests my reflexes here and there.

[Mavrias]

Because if you don’t know a tactic you get one hit killed. It’s not uncommon to see most of the raid die to something like a knockback.

You seem to be one of the ex WoW elitists, but you have to remember that this game was never really built around that style.

So you get raised or the group wipes and you try again, and this time you know what the mechanic does. Theres no real penalty for dying or wiping other than time lost in this game. Its not like this is FFXI where you lose exp or something.

Oh, no, you didn't immediately succeed on your first time trying a fight, what a nightmare.

[Vickii]

So you get raised or the group wipes and you try again, and this time you know what the mechanic does. Theres no real penalty for dying or wiping other than time lost in this game. Its not like this is FFXI where you lose exp or something.

Oh, no, you didn't immediately succeed on your first time trying a fight, what a nightmare.

Missed the point entirely there sweety. I was simply saying it was not easy as the guy was making it out to be.

There’s a lot of elitists in this game and I really don’t understand why. Nothing you have achieved is special, it’s simple a case of remembering things that you watched in a YouTube video. Anyone with basic motor skills can clear savage given enough time. No real skill involved and no need for such superiority. You will get blown off the stage by the next boss too however pro you are.

[Crushnight]

Missed the point entirely there sweety. I was simply saying it was not easy as the guy was making it out to be.

There’s a lot of elitists in this game and I really don’t understand why. Nothing you have achieved is special, it’s simple a case of remembering things that you watched in a YouTube video. Anyone with basic motor skills can clear savage given enough time. No real skill involved and no need for such superiority. You will get blown off the stage by the next boss too however pro you are.

That is kinda a bad statement to make as you can use it to dismiss everything in any game.

Dark souls is not hard you just have to learn the enemy patterns anyone can do it with enough time

DDR is not hard just gotta learn the rythmn anyone can do it with enough time

Animal crossing is not hard you just gotta sink a tonne of time into it to make the things you want, anyone can do it.

Given enough time and effort nothing is really hard to an individual in a video game look at speed runners, lv1 runners, challenge runs, they all probably had horrible performance when they started out but improved as time went on.

But your statement blanketed anything and everything as easy with enough time and quite frankly why shouldn't people feel good when they tackle and succeed against something that took them extra effort to do (savage in this case), the line I draw and where elitism is actually shown is when they gloat and demean others for not doing what they did the "Git Gud" crowd who gives zero advice on how.


As for the thread topic I refer to o10s as why savage raids would probably not be like Rathalos.

O10s had
-randomly designated tank busters, you can have 1 tank take all in the fight or you can have a 50/50 split
-random set of 4 patterns for his flip and spin combinations
-random exaflare patterns with a stack
-random nail positions for add phase

This fight is regarded as one of the worst savage fights by the community for the time it was released in because it was too random with its mechanics, it disrupted many jobs design flow.

The devs could make many 100% random fights but if they start breaking job design flow then there are going to be a lot more negativity towards that style(and there is in Rathalos-i like this fight but I'm a MHW player, o10s-a few people do like it but they are most certainly a minority of raiders from that time) which the devs will off weigh up and find if it is worth it to do.

[Vahlnir]

Missed the point entirely there sweety. I was simply saying it was not easy as the guy was making it out to be.

There’s a lot of elitists in this game and I really don’t understand why. Nothing you have achieved is special, it’s simple a case of remembering things that you watched in a YouTube video. Anyone with basic motor skills can clear savage given enough time. No real skill involved and no need for such superiority. You will get blown off the stage by the next boss too however pro you are.

Kinda funny how things have come full circle. You are now doing the same thing you accused me of, except this is the real thing. All you really took from my post was "lolthisguyisanelitist". Still not one, by the way. Maybe the word doesn't mean what you think it does. I also stated my OPINION that the latest Eden tier has been the easiest overall, on a mechanical level. I fully believe it though. But I stand by what I said, and that was to learn from your mistakes like everyone else does, among other things. Everyone is capable of this to varying degrees. I never said that would be easy. Just that it is doable. And yes, with enough time and practice even knockbacks are manageable.

[Mavrias]

Missed the point entirely there sweety. I was simply saying it was not easy as the guy was making it out to be.

There’s a lot of elitists in this game and I really don’t understand why. Nothing you have achieved is special, it’s simple a case of remembering things that you watched in a YouTube video. Anyone with basic motor skills can clear savage given enough time. No real skill involved and no need for such superiority. You will get blown off the stage by the next boss too however pro you are.

The guy didn't say it was easy point blank. They said that it is easier and more forgiving than past normal modes, and they would be correct.

There are no enrages, no dps checks, most attacks do not one shot, AoE's are telegraphed and very clearly, etc. You can die dozens of times, the only limiting factors being the instance timer and your healers' and raisers' mana.

I really don't know where your talk of elitists and savage has come from, since you were the one who brought it up. They literally just said the normal modes are forgiving.

[Vickii]

Kinda funny how things have come full circle. You are now doing the same thing you accused me of, except this is the real thing. All you really took from my post was "lolthisguyisanelitist". Still not one, by the way. Maybe the word doesn't mean what you think it does. I also stated my OPINION that the latest Eden tier has been the easiest overall, on a mechanical level. I fully believe it though. But I stand by what I said, and that was to learn from your mistakes like everyone else does, among other things. Everyone is capable of this to varying degrees. I never said that would be easy. Just that it is doable. And yes, with enough time and practice even knockbacks are manageable.

Again if you’re saying it’s the easiest tier because it usually gets cleared then I do agree with you. Unless both healers fail at once it’s very easy to complete the raids.

However I wouldn’t say it’s the easiest tier for individual players. There seems to be far more individual deaths than in previous tiers, just less wipes.