Thread: Revelations from Patch 5.4

MSQ Related:

Originally Posted by Fenral

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It's a matter of personal taste. I like a story to have consequences for both the antagonists and the protagonists. I don't care much for the Game of Thrones argument because it's not mass death that is being requested so much as the occasional major character being at risk of actually dying and staying dead. It helps cement an antagonist as a memorable threat and it's a lot more engaging to me than the one sided and very predictable trend of waiting multiple patches or expansions for some payoff for a particular plot point only for it to amount to very little in the end.

Killing off every other character for shock value would be silly, though in my view so too is avoiding killing any major allied characters at critical junctures in the plot. Sadly we've reached a point where even very minor characters are encased in a thick layer of plot armour.

Plus, at the end of the day, they're just pixels on a screen. There's some characters I care about more than others, naturally, but I'm more interested in a nuanced, engaging story than 'feels' and near constant fake outs.

Furthermore, a fair few Final Fantasy games - and other JRPG's - weren't afraid to embrace consequences on a reasonably frequent basis. I particularly enjoyed FF9, FFT and FF12 for that reason. ARR and HW even embraced the same approach, before switching to the majority of deaths being either throwaway characters who we knew for all of five minutes or sympathetic antagonists redeemed at the last moment to fulfil the quota of someone dying.

Originally Posted by Theodric

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This isn't really about the MSQ any more.

Honestly, I think we have very different memories of FF9. The majority of deaths were either throwaway characters who we knew for all of five minutes or sympathetic antagonists redeemed at the last moment to fulfill the quota of someone dying. Also a large number of soldiers and civilians, but only a few had names, and again, not much screen time. Quite a few inexplicable survivals as well (looking at you, Puck).

Still, you seem to have remembered it as a nuanced exploration of mortality, and I do as well. For me, it wasn't how few or how many people died, but how that affected these people who were taking us on this journey. It also had a modest runtime and then ended. I don't think I would have enjoyed it nearly as much if I had to sit through two, three, four times that and watch everyone drop, one by one. I think that's the only difference here.

Maybe it's not as frequent as it used to be, but what matters is that the things we've lost still matter. I honestly don't think anyone left in the story at this point is operating on the assumption that they can't die. They just aren't. It's not that the writers are "afraid," they're just busy taking other risks, having basically done meaningful loss to death already. Everyone has at least one recently deceased friend or family member, even minor characters, not to mention all the losses they've shared. No need to maximize their tragedy-per-second just because it's off CD again.

It's also just part of the natural progression of long-runners to eventually settle into something that works and stick with it, and let's face it, a lot of the early storytelling was just oppressive to the point of absurdity. There's nothing remotely nuanced about "if it even looks at you and your soul isn't special, we have no choice but to kill you." I think they were banking on pulling in more of the Attack on Titan grimdark crowd than they did, and have since been adjusting everything that wasn't already in the pipeline before they had feedback to respond to.

And we all know things always could start going badly again, they just haven't. Yet. Complain again in 20 years when we're still on the boat to Elfhelm but somehow managed to pick up three more comic-relief characters.

Originally Posted by Fenral

*snip*

...and yet they still bait deaths all the time, which we know they're not going to follow through. No one is asking for GoT level of deaths - although that had similar issues in how it chose to take out certain well liked characters - but let's not pretend "no one is safe" when only the antagonists and minor protagonists which we knew for all of 10 mins, like Tesleen or the sidequest lizards, died.

The fact that there is no follow-through makes them dull. Constant deaths can be a drag because they can force reactions that detract from the plot, but equally only having minor ones, or expected antagonist deaths, and then accompanying this with constant teases of death, becomes grating. Additionally, you can add in all the blurbs you like about how powerful Emet-Selch, Elidibus or Zenos are. If there's no real risk of death or permanent injury, it's just blurbs, with no further consequence. With the way tempering has gone, not even Primals pose the same threat they used to, and plot points hinging on it (e.g. Bozja, probably 5.5) are that more easily brushed away through the miracle cure.

Frankly, we're not going to see eye to eye on this matter. I've long since acknowledged that the story direction of the lore isn't to my liking. It is just a case of biding time until another MMO comes along that better suits my tastes.

Eden's Promise

I was not surprised when Mitron came out. It's always Ascians. I WAS surprised when Gaia was revealed as Loghrif, and it is fitting that the final boss not only uses the Draw and Junction mechanics from FF8, but also uses the Primals we summoned in The First. Plus, we have a bigger understanding of what caused the Flood of Light and what Eden even is.

Gotta say, the transformed corpse of an Ascian was NOT my guess, but guess it's fitting with his summoning capabilities.

Also, that cutscene fully awakening The Empty... What a send-off to 8, too, with Ryne in the place of Squall, gunblade and all.

Rainbow Crystal is also nice to look at and thematically appropriate. Plus, Gaia can MAYBE cross shards now, so THAT'LL be interesting.

Ascian tangent but with Eden spoilers

So now that we have Mitron and Loghrif (sorta) dealt with, it brings our Ascian casualties to: Lahabrea, Igeyorhm, Emet-Selch, Elidibus, Nabriales, Emmerololth (kinda sorta), Mitron (to be reborn), and Loghrif (already reborn and "converted"). That's 8 out of 13, so we're missing 5: Fandaniel (to be killed 6.0, probably), Altima (who I KNOW has already shown up but damn if I can remember anything about her), Pashtarot, Deudalaphon, and Halmarut. IF 6.0/.x will be the end of the Ascian plot, we have 5 more to off ourselves or be offed offscreen like ol' Eureka there.

Originally Posted by Fenral

Towers are apparently not Mhachi, though I still wonder how anyone could have identified them as Garlean

I mean... considering we learned that

Ascians were behind every major civilization on the Source, and that probably means Amdapor/Mhach/Nym too and all... it's a "well yes, but actually no" moment to me. They definitely have a more Mhachi design to the towers, but parts do have that distinct Garlean look. I'm guessing Fandango had something to do with them being made, so... yes they could be something the Mhachi used long ago, just updated!

I usually lurk these threads, but a fun post-msq an observation a friend made that, save for a couple of areas, was true:

All of the towers are in areas where we've fought Primals OR have a beast tribe presence. The only areas I didn't see the towers in were North Shroud, Central Coerthas, East Shroud, and Sea of Clouds. The towers can be seen from any aetheryte you port into, and they're pretty hard to miss.

The locations we saw them at were in Southern Thanalan (closest to Forgotten Springs, almost directly easy by the Amaljaa encampment where the fate Blood, Augur, Hex, ....whateverthelastoneis spawns), South Shroud (closest to Camp Tranquil), Dravanian Forelands (by the entrance to the Hinterlands; can't be seen in the Hinterlands), Yanxia (past Castrum Fluminis), The Lochs (down by Sothward, closest to Porta Praetoria), and of course the one by Nym in La Noscea.

The fact that they're all in areas where there are beast tribe presence OR where we've had a trial against a Primal really stood out to us; why it's like that can be coincidence or they're using these areas for concentrated aether to power their Mass Tempering GarleanMhachiAmaurotianAmhacarlean Machines to temper people who get too close to them. After all, Black Rose is no longer a thing, how else do you make a lot of people lose their minds?

Nier:

I DO NOT LIKE THIS, SAM I AM. The entire time during the Echo recall with Konogg, I was going "oh no. Oh No. Oh NO.... OH NO! NOOOOO NO NO NO BAD BAD NO!!!" because the formula and what the orb IS: a Seed of Destruction, seen when the end of the world is nigh, and the being inside comes out bent on destroying the world. That's bad times.

The story went where I wasn't expecting, and I'm not sure how to feel about it beyond INTERNAL SCREAMING UNTIL 5.5 because what we learned, what they introduced... that's a lot and pretty heavy. Let's hope Yoko Taro doesn't get to delete a Data Center!

Role quests:

Time travel from the msq and Shard hopping from this. I don't think they'll have us Shard hopping as another xpac, but I do feel it'll be a Chronicles-type quest to bring aetherical balance back to the 13th. As has been pointed out, Taynor and Unukalhai's eyes... hmmmm. I do like that Unukalhai finally made a friend and gained a single dad though! Poor kid needs some friends and some care by a bounty hunting single dad Cerigg lmao. I'm curious to see where this will go.

Little details I had filed away for later are starting to trickle back to the forefront, so here goes:


More MSQ thoughts:

Our adventure in Azys Lla casually reintroduced a really old "plot point" (I use that term generously) from the Crystal Tower arc. Namely, the entirely arbitrary time limit on G'raha's royal blood, which is apparently an issue again now that he's in his younger, immediately-post-CT body. It wasn't mentioned at all in Shadowbringers proper, and seemed to have become a non-issue considering he had gone 90+ years without losing it (unless that was part of his Tower fusion).

This could just be one of those things like Thancred's handicap or Y'shtola's aethersight, meant to give a sense of vulnerability to an otherwise invincible character. At worst, I'd like to think of those as early retirement cards that could be played before they all end up dying.

Or maybe, they're setting up a scenario in which G'raha's all-access pass expires while he's on some urgent solo mission in the depths of an Allagan death-fortress, with optional "he knew his time was running out, but he had to do it anyway" eulogy. It would be a huge backpedal if handled badly, so hopefully my read on the situation is wrong. It's probably still one or two major versions out, either way.