Developers : Healer design mentality needs to change

[Saefinn]

The devs apparently disagree or they wouldn't have changed it.

And when you think about it, why would having more buttons break the monotony if they're all independent buttons with no combo relationship? In the end, it'll still be spamming the same buttons, even if there are more of what you spam. So I think the reason why you feel less buttons to spam is suddenly monotonous is what makes it not so simple for others to have more buttons, and why the devs decide to simplify it. Maybe they've gone too far, so we'll see next expansion if they think so as well or if they do want this.

MNK's design, their attempt at making BRD a bow Mage, their attempts at trying to make Limited Jobs work, their two failed Diadem attempts, Eureka Anemos and Pagos and more tells me that the devs aren't always right and don't always get it right. Not only that, the examples I listed the devs have accepted they were wrong and listened to user feedback on it, like we are giving now. And in fairness, it happens. And I can speak as a developer, but for a different industry and well, we even get it wrong, we get feedback and make changes and we're not dealing with anything as complex with as many varied use cases as an MMO.

It's obvious the Devs don't agree, that's a moot point, we're highlighting a perceived issue and providing feedback on how those issues can be resolved and revert some of their decisions which are consider by many as bad decisions. And as we know they get feedback from the forums, they have been known to correct bad decisions or find other ways to solve problems. So yes, we'll raise points like this.


And yes I recognise not everybody finds it monotonous or as a problem. This goes right back to a previous point of mine. They could have introduced a 4th healer (and still can) with a stripped back DPS kit. It means those who liked WHM/SCH/AST with their design philosophies they had could have continued to enjoy their roles whilst those who fancied something with less of a DPS kit could have gone for the 4th healer.

The beauty of having multiple jobs for each role is that you can appeal to different people's preferred playstyles.

As for the monotony, having more abilities to use in your down time, even if you spam them is more interesting than one or two buttons being spammed.

I don't need to think about it like it's a hypothetical answer, because I've lived it and know what the difference feels like. The healer requirement was already low in Stormblood but never complained because I had the consolation there was something to break up the down time. Albeit there were still some problems.

[linayar]

It's a simple way of making even more healers quit because it doesn't reduce the downtime healers feel, even if one GCD on healing over 5min is objectively more time spent healing than over 10min. But it does make healer gameplay feel even more unsatisyfing and we're already at an all-time low.

How would it be worse if the gameplay doesn't change and the fight goes faster? 5 minutes is a like a third or a fourth of like an Ultimate fight, or so I've heard. That's not insignificant in terms of a boss fight.

the devs aren't always right and don't always get it right.

Obviously, it's not my point that they're always right or that you can't give feedback to make them reverse a decision.

My point is simply that I don't think you've dealt with the reason why they changed it in the first place.

The beauty of having multiple jobs for each role is that you can appeal to different people's preferred playstyles.

Perhaps, although certain considerations have to be made for the role as a whole as well.

I don't need to think about it like it's a hypothetical answer, because I've lived it and know what the difference feels like.

And that diffference existing is why one is not as simple as the other and that, I think, has to do with why there was a change toward reduction.

[Saefinn]

Obviously, it's not my point that they're always right or that you can't give feedback to make them reverse a decision.

My point is simply that I don't think you've dealt with the reason why they changed it in the first place.

I think their intention ends up being a moot point when the result is undesirable because with the problems caused they can see that what they tried to do isn't working.

With your suggestion that their goal is to make things simple. This really only applies to the DPS side anyway, because although the healing requirement is low and that makes it easier for healers who have learned the role. If anything over time the healing aspect has a greater wall for learning because there's more abilities they need to learn to think about. Whereas, DPS is considered optional, when it comes to healing they would be more compelled to learn how to use each of their healing abilities. And to be fair, when the healing requirement is greater and you get to use the healing skills as intended, it's great design.

But when I used to help new healers back in ARR, if they wanted to learn Scholar, it'd be the more complicated of the two (versus WHM). I'd first teach them the foundations: Adloquium, Succor, Physick, Raise, Esuna/Leeches. They get used to that, then I'd teach them about Lustrate and Sacred Soil. After that, they could learn about faerie management, which is set and forget if you prefer AI, which was optional. Even then, micromanaging wasn't difficult, but the lowest priority to learn. And this was it.
Nowadays you have more on top of that. You have additional aetherflow skills and have to learn about using Exogitation vs Lustrate. Then you have your tactics - so Deployment Tactics and Emergency tactics as something else to think about. Working in Dissipation. Learning about Seraph and making use of her. And when to throw in Fey Blessing, Recitation and Fey Pact and how each of those can be useful. And at some point they'll have to learn that the GCD's that make up for their core heals no longer make up their core ability use but are secondary instead, because oGCD's after a certain level will start being much better use. To the point you'd probably remove Physick/Cure/Benefic from your hotbar entirely.


From a learning perspective, that's a lot more to think about. From an experienced perspective, it's bloat in most scenarios and therefore easy. But when you do get to properly use them? Yeah, it's great. The way they're designed to work and flow with each other is well suited to a higher healing requirement (which is another reason why I feel there's a desire for more healing). And in a higher healing requirement scenario, it too would be fine for stripped back DPS because chances are you'll be weaving them not spamming them. I told somebody the other week looking to get into healing to not be overwhelmed by the what each ability done, but start small with the foundations.

So if "simple" is their goal, sure the DPS is dead simple. I think the healing aspect has grown more complicated whilst being easier once you have your head around them. Sure you could argue that the simplification of DPS abilities to make room for a more comprehensive healing kit, this would only work or make sense with a higher healing requirement where you can make proper use of them.

If you're looking just at down time and healing requirement, then yes, one could conclude it's about making things simple. When you look at the actual healing kit, you've got something too comprehensive for the low healing requirement we've got. So I am not convinced that the "reason" is to do with simplicity. I am more convinced it is to do with a greater healing emphasis, which is something I've already addressed. I think what's more likely is that they've put a lower emphasis on DPS use and gradually built a more extensive and comprehensive healing kit, but balanced it around Savage/EX content.

[linayar]

I think their intention ends up being a moot point when the result is undesirable because with the problems caused they can see that what they tried to do isn't working.

Fair enough, though in that case, it's just a matter of enough voices telling them to change back, like with the change over alliance raid loot.

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Regarding complexity of healing kit, is it not comparable with DPS and their damage kit?

Two scenarios:

1. If fights are not demanding the full use of the healing kit, then that complexity is reduced for that fight.
2. If fights are demanding the full use, then players who choose to be healers would either learn their full kit or decide it's not the role for them, just like some players think DPS are too complicated to "master" and decide it's not for them or others with the role of tank. And for this scenario, a simplified damage kit also helps.

And yes, the problem of bloat can and does happen, but that's across all three roles. And I personally would support further reduction in buttons but with more meaningful interaction, but that's just me. I know some players think more buttons is more fun, and that's fine.

[Saefinn]

Fair enough, though in that case, it's just a matter of enough voices telling them to change back, like with the change over alliance raid loot.

Regarding complexity of healing kit, is it not comparable with DPS and their damage kit?

Two scenarios:

1. If fights are not demanding the full use of the healing kit, then that complexity is reduced for that fight.
2. If fights are demanding the full use, then players who choose to be healers would either learn their full kit or decide it's not the role for them, just like some players think DPS are too complicated to "master" and decide it's not for them or others with the role of tank. And for this scenario, a simplified damage kit also helps.

And yes, the problem of bloat can and does happen, but that's across all three roles. And I personally would support further reduction in buttons but with more meaningful interaction, but that's just me. I know some players think more buttons is more fun, and that's fine.

My thing is that I just want to have fun being a healer.

I think there's room for more buttons. But I don't even think there's a need for that or for much in the way of that, because some abilities can be given dual purposes. AST I think needs rework on existing buttons, because they already have all the extra buttons for their card system, it's the system itself I think could be improved. SCH I put earlier in the thread an approach that embraces its tactician persona in offering some dual purpose to its ability, the concept adds '0' new buttons to SCH and makes use of existing buttons that would be considered bloat in a low healing situation, so just get repurposed to be useful. WHM, I think could probably get away with a couple more buttons, but even then Cure could be upgraded to Cure II and Fluid Aura could have its function changed or replace it entirely because it is any incredibly, incredibly niche ability that I don't think anybody uses. Maybe WHM could also have some dual purpose abilities too, like Assize already is.