Thread: Patch 5.4 Trailer, Predictions, and Hints

Originally Posted by Jandor

Normal primals can always be re-summoned.

Zodiark was made by ancient masters of creation magic sacrificing half their population though, I doubt sundered mortals are capable of recreating him in his all-powerful 'rewrite the laws of reality' form if he's destroyed.

Right, but the mortals aren't all perfectly sundered anymore. Therefore, unless Hydaelyn forces a second sundering, mortals are capable of recreating him.

The only "Zodiark is perfectly gone" scenario is all Ascians are destroyed, their history lost, and the rejoined worlds are sundered again. Isn't this kind of a tall order?

Originally Posted by Kesey

Right, but the mortals aren't all perfectly sundered anymore. Therefore, unless Hydaelyn forces a second sundering, mortals are capable of recreating him.

The only "Zodiark is perfectly gone" scenario is all Ascians are destroyed, their history lost, and the rejoined worlds are sundered again. Isn't this kind of a tall order?

Not only is it a tall order, it's one the protagonists (WoL+Scions) seem to be against. Promising to remember Amaurot won't amount to anything if they take the knowledge of its history to their graves.

Originally Posted by Kesey

Right, but the mortals aren't all perfectly sundered anymore. Therefore, unless Hydaelyn forces a second sundering, mortals are capable of recreating him.

I don't see how 1 logically flows in 2. The races of mankind didn't create Zodiark, therefore it can't be assumed they could recreate Zodiark either.

We're not half ancient just because we're partially restored, our adventures in Amaurot show that even at 7/14 we're still completely incapable of weilding the creation magic they favoured.

Originally Posted by Jandor

I don't see how 1 logically flows in 2. The races of mankind didn't create Zodiark, therefore it can't be assumed they could recreate Zodiark either.

We're not half ancient just because we're partially restored, our adventures in Amaurot show that even at 7/14 we're still completely incapable of weilding the creation magic they favoured.

Thats exactly how I meant it. Since most people are 7/14 rejoined they are growing in their power to resummon Zodiark. If we defeat Zodiark and Hydaelyn doesn't resunder the star, the people will remain 7/14 (or even 8/14 if Fandaniel gets another rejoining) which we know is the needed power levels to resummon Zodiark. And since primals can be resummoned even after they are defeated, and since its a ridiculously tall order to destroy all the Ascians, earse their culture (which we promised to remember), and finally resunder 7 or 8/14 rejoinings so the power level needed isn't there, he has the potential to come back. Also I clarified my statement after you quoted me but was the part of my quote you cut off.

Honestly, this seems like a lot of explaining because I pointed out that there isn't enough evidence that Zodiark can be eradicated from existence.

Lastly, summoning primals is creation magic (the elders and normies). If you still believe that these are two different things you were not paying attention when you went to Amarout.

Originally Posted by Jandor

You are explicitly told in Amaurot that you have zero capacity to do creation magic. It's also established that anyone, even the WoL, could perform a summoning if they really wanted to.

It follows therefore, that summoning is not the same as creation magic. Might be very loosely related, but it doesn't have the same requirements and it doesn't get the same results.

I'm pretty sure summoning magic IS meant to be related to Creation magic. While we're told in Amaraut that we don't have the capacity for Creation magic, the one telling us that bases the judgment on the fact that our internal aether reserves are alarmingly weak. But the thing about Summoning, is that the summoners use an EXTERNAL reserve of Aether - crystals, and lots of them. It likely wouldn't even occur to an Ancient to Create in this way. I mean, why bother, when you have internal Aether to spare?

Examples like the final dungeon boss of Akadaemia Anyder and the mention of Ifrita from the side stories seem deliberately placed to indicate "this is how Summoning got started". Not to mention, the whole deal with Zodiark and Hydaelyn. Emet-Selch flat-out states that they are Primals. There's some indication that those, along with Quetzalcoatl were EXPERIMENTAL Creation magic, since their summoning involved complete depletion of an entity's Aether (one person's Aether for Quetz, millions or billions for Zodiark, and an unknown number for Hydaelyn), something which was likely unheard of before times became as desperate as they were.

Unless told otherwise, though, I think it's safe to assume that Summoning is basically Creation magic with an external Aether source, since the summoners lack the internal reserves to do true Creation magic.

Originally Posted by Jandor

I don't see how 1 logically flows in 2. The races of mankind didn't create Zodiark, therefore it can't be assumed they could recreate Zodiark either.

We're not half ancient just because we're partially restored, our adventures in Amaurot show that even at 7/14 we're still completely incapable of weilding the creation magic they favoured.

8/14ths. 7 Shards destroyed, our main self on the Source. That's 8/14. With Ardbert, we're now 9/14, with only 5 shards left.