Thoughts on Level Squishes

[Ammokkx]

People just don't want to, but I mean, plenty of people don't want to press more than five buttons so...

I genuinely don't understand why people like you want more buttons than there already are.

No, don't get me wrong, I don't think there are too many buttons to press. I think there are enough and that the mentality of "let's not add more" is entirely justified.

I'm not sure if you know this, but keeping track of around 24 individual combat skills + about 8 utility things you use less often isn't exactly the easiest thing in the world for the average person. I find myself often fucking up a rotation not because I don't know what my buttons are, but because muscle memory only carries me so far before I accidentally tap something next to the thing I actually meant to press and mess up my whole rotation. I don't think small missteps like this are a bad thing inherently, but the more buttons you're going to add, the worse this problem is going to get.

Not only that, but forgive my candor if I'll say I find a lot of the things in XIV a bit redundant. The 1-2-3 combo exists almost entirely so you wouldn't be mindlessly spamming one button, which is good, but there's no real reason for it to be there other than player engagement. PvP shows just how many buttons you can cut down on while still having a functional kit, because once you're up against real players with a bit of lag, suddenly it doesn't seem like a good idea to not be able to quickly access your combat skills. Something like Samurai makes the most creative use of having a lot of buttons because it has branching combos that adapt based on the order you decide to do things in. It's overall a very dynamic class and one of the few in the game I see truly justifying the space it takes up on the hotbar- and even SAM has garbage skills that don't deserve a spot.

Adding more redundant skills for the sake of just having more stuff to press isn't exactly the sign of good design to me. I find XIV at its best when I have to haul ass and pay attention to what's happening around me, adjusting my play as I go. Actually getting to pull off any of my rotations is satisfying not because I can press buttons gooder, but because I managed to position myself in a way relative to the boss where I got the time to lay down the big deeps. In order for it to not be mindnumbing I do think a good 20 or so buttons you're switching between 24/7 is a fine number so you always have something different to press, but that's because I don't see a good reason to have any more for the sake of just having more. Keep in mind movement and targeting are also button presses you constantly have to keep up. The dexterity required to play an MMO isn't so much high in terms of reaction time, but simply being able to memorize so much shit.

Having a million buttons to cycle through at blazing speeds while also having a lot of game knowledge is exactly the reason not a lot of people are good at RTS games. Shit's hard, and I think XIV does "hard" well enough by just making fights more punishing (savage) rather than upping the bar for entry required to enjoy baseline content. This game isn't even as easy as many people would like to complain, seeing as how I still routinely wipe in Labrynth. While I don't agree with using a controller for an MMO, I find it fantastic this game managed to make it work and be that much more playable for a larger crowd. I think that's a good philosophy, and that the skills tested by XIV are in a good spot as they are for many kinds of players.

[Puremallace]

Blizzard did it because they were on Expansion number 8 and their level cap was 120. If you leveled in WoW from 1-120 it was a very lonely journey THAT WAS TORTURE to get dungeon queues and raids are NOPEEEEEE

I promise you FF14 does not suffer from the poor design decisions in level that WoW does. The level scaling system in FF14 should have been adopted by Blizzard years ago but they are too stubborn to even conceive of designing their end game around anything other then raids or end game dungeons that quickly gets invalidated with the next patch.

Level squish would break multiple aspects of FF14 from story to deep dungeons. Maybe once FF14 gets up to 8 expansions and new people stop joining you could justify it but right now there is zero percent chance.

[Raikai]

Blizzard did it because they were on Expansion number 8 and their level cap was 120. If you leveled in WoW from 1-120 it was a very lonely journey THAT WAS TORTURE to get dungeon queues and raids are NOPEEEEEE

I promise you FF14 does not suffer from the poor design decisions in level that WoW does. The level scaling system in FF14 should have been adopted by Blizzard years ago but they are too stubborn to even conceive of designing their end game around anything other then raids or end game dungeons that quickly gets invalidated with the next patch.

Level squish would break multiple aspects of FF14 from story to deep dungeons. Maybe once FF14 gets up to 8 expansions and new people stop joining you could justify it but right now there is zero percent chance.

It would defnitely be a lot of work to make it happen, and I don't expect it on 6 or even 7.0... But it will be def. something very needed come 10.0+

[Seraphor]

It would defnitely be a lot of work to make it happen, and I don't expect it on 6 or even 7.0... But it will be def. something very needed come 10.0+

But why would it ever be needed?

FFXIV has a mandatory MSQ anyway, and a level syncing system that keeps all content active regardless of level.
Levelling in WoW was a long, lonely process, in FFXIV, progressing through the story at a certain pace IS the bulk of the game.

What would be gained from rescaling the level structure so that you finish ARR at level 30, HW at level 40, SB at level 50, etc.? It's still going to take you the same amount of time to get through the story.

[Raikai]

But why would it ever be needed?

FFXIV has a mandatory MSQ anyway, and a level syncing system that keeps all content active regardless of level.
Levelling in WoW was a long, lonely process, in FFXIV, progressing through the story at a certain pace IS the bulk of the game.

What would be gained from rescaling the level structure so that you finish ARR at level 30, HW at level 40, SB at level 50, etc.? It's still going to take you the same amount of time to get through the story.

Your point is technically correct, but there's something about the spacing of abilities and traits learned that would make earning levels a very barren experience, but other than that, maybe publicity. A lot of newcomers may not be particulary fond of looking at 200 levels ahead if they aren't aware of what you said.

But even so, I'd say they would need to at least adjust the experience so the pre-current-expansion levels could be earned entirely with the MSQ and the dungeon completions required for the MSQ;

[Seraphor]

Your point is technically correct, but there's something about the spacing of abilities and traits learned that would make earning levels a very barren experience, but other than that, maybe publicity. A lot of newcomers may not be particulary fond of looking at 200 levels ahead if they aren't aware of what you said.

But even so, I'd say they would need to at least adjust the experience so the pre-current-expansion levels could be earned entirely with the MSQ and the dungeon completions required for the MSQ;

So you'd keep a similar skill spacing as what we currently have, and squish the levels down?
So we're now not learning our level 50 skills at the end of ARR, but towards the end of SB instead? Three expansions and still not dealing with any signature abilities?
It just reframes the issue. Instead of waiting until level 60 to learn your gap closer as a tank for example, you're only waiting until level 40... except that level 40 doesn't happen until Stormblood... so you're still playing most of the game without a gap closer.
I feel that a level squish like this would simply give them more license to strip skills from lower levels. Only they technically wouldn't be doing so because those lower levels are 'higher' than they would have been.

I doubt we'll ever get to 200 levels.
6.0 will get us to 90, and 7.0 will get us to 100. I expect after that stage, we'll definitely see a drop off in content. We'll probably not get any more jobs, or we'll only get 5 more levels at a time, or maybe no new levels, who knows. Something in this respect will have to give way.
I do expect we will see a stat squish, but not a level squish.

[Raikai]

So you'd keep a similar skill spacing as what we currently have, and squish the levels down?
So we're now not learning out level 50 skills at the end of ARR, but towards the end of SB instead? Three expansions and still not dealing with any signature abilities?
It just reframes the issue. Instead of waiting until level 60 to learn your gap closer as a tank for example, you're only waiting until level 40... except that level 40 doesn't happen until Stormblood... so you're still playing most of the game without a gap closer.
I feel that a level squish like this would simply give them more license to strip skills from lower levels. Only they technically wouldn't be doing so because those lower levels are 'higher' than they would have been.

I doubt we'll ever get to 200 levels.
6.0 will get us to 90, and 7.0 will get us to 100. I expect after that stage, we'll definitely see a drop off in content. We'll probably not get any more jobs, or we'll only get 5 more levels at a time, or maybe no new levels, who knows. Something in this respect will have to give way.

To be fair I'd really dig a different approach to endgame with levels never advancing beyond 100 for future expansions. I that was the one of thr most interesting aspect of Guild Wars 2 and its expansion systems.

[DPZ2]

But even so, I'd say they would need to at least adjust the experience so the pre-current-expansion levels could be earned entirely with the MSQ and the dungeon completions required for the MSQ;

Your wish was already granted. You can now run from 1 to 70 by doing the MSQ quests, which include dungeon/trial instances, alone.

If you enjoy the side-stories and doing daily instances, you can also raise up many of your alternate jobs at the same time.

[BaconBits]

Gimme them Disgaea numbers, I wanna see White Mages doing damage in the trillions with a single Glare

[Vyrerus]

I genuinely don't understand people like you

It's not really a matter of wanting more, it's a matter of not wanting a reduction. Every time they do a reduction in this game, it's mildly upsetting. They don't even let us have a say on what they prune. They just remove whatever and change whatever, and then let us adapt to the new skill situation. It pretty much always simplifies the classes it affects.

All melees have branching combos. Nothin' special about Samurai, other than having to slide cast on a melee, occasionally.

You wipe in things like Labyrinth because people are lazy and/or tunnel, because what they are doing is simple. This game has plenty of difficulty, but this is a poor example. It's also a case for why too much simplicity and paring down is a bad thing. People never maintain a constant effort level as things get simpler. They usually see it as allowance to be even lazier lol