The skill progression is atrocious

[Lumberfoot]

I never said it was 100% story. Some games are better at certain things than other games. Pick the game right for your mood. If someone thinks GW2 is better at combat and combat is what they want, then they should be playing GW2.

If you want access to your full toolkit, the simple solution is to do content your level instead of content that requires you to level sync. You're still going to get XP and tomestones as appropriate. You're also going to get a chance at gear for your level.

Almost everyone has a core kit at 50. Everyone has a set of single target attacks. Most have a set of AoE attacks (I would agree that those who don't have the second part of their AoE combo should get them at 50). That is a core kit - the basic attacks. The things that enhance those kits to make them their most powerful and interesting need to come at advanced levels. If you give them too soon, the player gets just as bored of never getting any thing new and interesting for the last 30+ levels. That was a problem I had with WoW following changes they started making in WoD. I don't want to see that happening here.

The problem is not that other games do combat better, ffxiv has good combat at end game. Its just that it takes too long to progress, and as far as I can tell there is no good story reason for that, because at the end of ARR you've achieved enough to warrant having a strong character. But I would not advocate for frontloading everything and having nothing from 50-80, just that the progression starts out fast and pans out as your character grows (kind of like in real life) and don't have a weird bump mid game like for example the Dragoon. And its not like all jobs got a ton of new skills in the level span of ShB, but that didn't stop people from playing. Summoner only got the phoenix, which is essentially just a fire version of bahamut, and they are everywhere.

Also I do not agree with your definition of the core kit. A jobs core should be a defining mechanic of your job, not the basic attack chain.

[Reap00]

The problem is not that other games do combat better, ffxiv has good combat at end game. Its just that it takes too long to progress, and as far as I can tell there is no good story reason for that, because at the end of ARR you've achieved enough to warrant having a strong character. But I would not advocate for frontloading everything and having nothing from 50-80, just that the progression starts out fast and pans out as your character grows (kind of like in real life) and don't have a weird bump mid game like for example the Dragoon. And its not like all jobs got a ton of new skills in the level span of ShB, but that didn't stop people from playing. Summoner only got the phoenix, which is essentially just a fire version of bahamut, and they are everywhere.

Also I do not agree with your definition of the core kit. A jobs core should be a defining mechanic of your job, not the basic attack chain.

I disagree. What mmo does combat better? FFXIV is clearly superior.

[LogicHatesMe]

They've (as writers would say) written themselves into a corner. They have followed traditional MMORPG means and they can't exactly undo it. They could feasably allow you to run all MSQ required dungeons with NPC's, and then not sync you or said NPC's. Optional content isn't too much of an issue, but when they force you into stuff to progress the story, you don't want long wait times (or wait times at all tbh) because it breaks up the flow. You quite often have 3-4 NPC characters with you on the story anyways (The Scions in ARR, Estinien in HW etc) so allowing those characters to participate in dungeons like they do in Duties would make sense, also allowing you to customise how they play a bit would work too. I know SE really want you to always do party stuff cause part of the game IS social, but the MSQ should be 100% solo (I find it odd when it's all like "Oh we need to defeat this primal... but you and a random 7 other people none of us never met will have to do it".) If they made all MSQ content solo with your NPC party, they could then offer more enticing rewards for people to do DR and be forced to sync down to beginner skill sets.

The other problem is the idea of "expansions" that add 10 levels, an extra continuation of the story, new areas/dungeons/trials, new skills and new gear. This train of thought leads to obvious gimping of early level content to push the end game. A lot of MMO's start to care more about their end game, and keeping their high level long time player base, than the new players coming in (it should be a balance of both) Basically there's issues that most online games suffer from, because online games never end.

[Reap00]

I am going to bottom line it. This is the best MMO on the market. Nothing comes close. You have other options if you want to go the inferior route.

[Liam_Harper]

I'm baffled at people arguing that skill progression is fine.

We don't need to dump the entire toolkit on people at 50, but if for example every melee dps had their 1, 2, 3 combo, 1-2 oGcd and the first step of their aoe at lv15, would new players seriously be overwhelmed by those 5 buttons? There is no excuse for 2 button Satasha runs or Ninja's being unable to aoe in Brayflox or Qarn.

Combat is the number one complaint I've seen from new players. They feel it's slow, clunky and boring and never get as far as 50+ to start unlocking oGcD's. First impressions matter a lot.

[Reap00]

I'm baffled at people arguing that skill progression is fine.

We don't need to dump the entire toolkit on people at 50, but if for example every melee dps had their 1, 2, 3 combo, 1-2 oGcd and the first step of their aoe at lv15, would new players seriously be overwhelmed by those 5 buttons? There is no excuse for 2 button Satasha runs or Ninja's being unable to aoe in Brayflox or Qarn.

Combat is the number one complaint I've seen from new players. They feel it's slow, clunky and boring and never get as far as 50+ to start unlocking oGcD's. First impressions matter a lot.

It takes a few hours of game play to level to 50. If players don't want to invest a few hours into an mmo they should probably find a new genre.

[Lumberfoot]

I disagree. What mmo does combat better? FFXIV is clearly superior.

Not sure what you mean, I didn't say the combat was bad or that other games does it better.

It takes a few hours of game play to level to 50. If players don't want to invest a few hours into an mmo they should probably find a new genre.

It just took me 4 days to get Dragoon to lvl 50 and that's with the bonuses from having a character at 80, company exp bonus, rested exp etc. That's more than a few hours to me. It takes vastly longer to get past 50 with your first character, especially since you will be stuck doing the post ARR MSQ. Not to mention most skills are locked to HW quests so even if you level up you don't get any new skills till you're done with ARR. And most jobs doesn't get most of their skill until after lvl 50.

[tdb]

It takes a few hours of game play to level to 50. If players don't want to invest a few hours into an mmo they should probably find a new genre.

It might be a few hours for someone who already knows the game (especially what gives best exp) and is powerleveling a new job. But I can guarantee you a new player isn't going to do it that fast. I think it took me around two months of calendar time to get my first job to Lv50 back in 3.58 / 4.0, though I also had at least two others to Lv35 by that time (due to free-to-play restrictions and the delivery time of StB preorder). I had played almost 1.5 years by the time I caught up with the MSQ and had all endgame content unlocked. More recently it took about two weeks each to level GNB and DNC from Lv60 to Lv80, mostly by doing daily stuff like roulettes and beast tribes.

[DPZ2]

Combat is the number one complaint I've seen from new players. They feel it's slow, clunky and boring and never get as far as 50+ to start unlocking oGcD's. First impressions matter a lot.

Yet, somehow, someway, every new player has gone through this to get to the next tier, and the next, for the last 7 years. Many are still playing, many are new and still playing.

First impressions matter a lot, but there are other things about this game that appear to outweigh the leveling combat system, since it isn't the primary reason players continue to play Final Fantasy XIV.

[Lumberfoot]

Yet, somehow, someway, every new player has gone through this to get to the next tier, and the next, for the last 7 years. Many are still playing, many are new and still playing.

First impressions matter a lot, but there are other things about this game that appear to outweigh the leveling combat system, since it isn't the primary reason players continue to play Final Fantasy XIV.

Just because the leveling isn't the primary reason why people play (which it mostly isn't in mmorpgs, its almost always the endgame that determine player retention) and that many have persevered through it doesn't mean it cant or shouldn't be improved.