Short (or not) constructive feedback to the development of the game.

[hansi379]

Based on what I've read here so far, the complaints can be summarized as such: I don't like it because I can't make myself look better than everyone else.

More like your complaints about the content being difficult is spawned from apparent insecurity.

And the thing is, if anyone judges you based on how you play the game if it doesn't inherently harm someone, then they're the ones being a dumbass.
So why can we not let the players who enjoy difficulty have their piece of the cake? They spend effort trying to do the best they can, because the sense of mastery is what drives them to play the game. Why are people like you so vehemently against this, if it's literally optional content?

I honestly hope that they realise that dumbing down the game over the years has done nothing fruitful when looking at the whole Shiva(Unreal) situation, where the fight wasn't really complained about six years ago, but apparently now it's the fault of the developers for making hard content difficult.

I'll still stand by the insecurity claim, because I don't see how else this impacts your game. And it's frankly immature to get upset over what other people achieve if they're having a blast. Don't rain on people's parades, be happy for them.

Hell, you can look at threads from two years ago and they'll have much the same sentiments as OP does about the job system, and how they're taking out the feeling of mastery from a lot of classes.
They already make story content very possible to overcome. Nobody's being barred from anything.
Who's to say that we can't challenge the players who enjoy that feeling of mastery? Why do you care if someone has x title and you don't? It looks cool, which is such a great reward, just be happy that each ultimate clear doesn't pay out 100m gil instead. Now THAT's actually barring people.

I'm super tired of people not allowing space for players without the same interests as their own. What OP talked about is a reality. A sense of mastery that was designed in the game, that used to exist, has been taken away.
There are players who only sub for the story,
there are players who have daily roleplaying sessions,
there are players who love to do gathering for hours,
there are players who love to do raids.
I have all kinds of friends like this. Why can we not accept each other and try to foster enjoyment for everyone?

[Alice_Nightingale_Odin]

More like your complaints about the content being difficult is spawned from apparent insecurity.

And the thing is, if anyone judges you based on how you play the game if it doesn't inherently harm someone, then they're the ones being a dumbass.
So why can we not let the players who enjoy difficulty have their piece of the cake? They spend effort trying to do the best they can, because the sense of mastery is what drives them to play the game. Why are people like you so vehemently against this, if it's literally optional content?

I honestly hope that they realise that dumbing down the game over the years has done nothing fruitful when looking at the whole Shiva(Unreal) situation, where the fight wasn't really complained about six years ago, but apparently now it's the fault of the developers for making hard content difficult.

I'll still stand by the insecurity claim, because I don't see how else this impacts your game. And it's frankly immature to get upset over what other people achieve if they're having a blast. Don't rain on people's parades, be happy for them.

Hell, you can look at threads from two years ago and they'll have much the same sentiments as OP does about the job system, and how they're taking out the feeling of mastery from a lot of classes.
They already make story content very possible to overcome. Nobody's being barred from anything.
Who's to say that we can't challenge the players who enjoy that feeling of mastery? Why do you care if someone has x title and you don't? It looks cool, which is such a great reward, just be happy that each ultimate clear doesn't pay out 100m gil instead. Now THAT's actually barring people.

I'm super tired of people not allowing space for players without the same interests as their own. What OP talked about is a reality. A sense of mastery that was designed in the game, that used to exist, has been taken away.
There are players who only sub for the story,
there are players who have daily roleplaying sessions,
there are players who love to do gathering for hours,
there are players who love to do raids.
I have all kinds of friends like this. Why can we not accept each other and try to foster enjoyment for everyone?

This was a really well made reply. I think that really sums up a lot of my feelings around these issues. Deleted a reply I posted at the same time as this was a better one. Thank you

[Liam_Harper]

Or it's called having a life outside of FFXIV. This is the holy grail when it comes to making a good mmorpg. Yoshida states correctly that he doesn't like the idea of making an mmorpg which is like a job where you lock people out if they don't have the time to log every day/few days to do prog static sessions.

What exactly were you locked out of when the game was more challenging? Maybe a handful of titles, a few mounts, 3-4 star current crafts and EX/Savage/Ultimate (with a lot of that still being possible on a limited time schedule if you were patient and wanted it). You then had many hundreds of other crafts, items to gather, all of the MSQ, all side quests, all job quests, all seasonal events, every dungeon in the game, every alliance raid, every 8 man raid Normal, every trial Normal, most of HoH/PotD, housing, PvP, all the beast tribes, hundreds of titles, mounts and minions, all Ex/Savage rewards a tier later via echo and all previous crafts as new gear came out. I don't understand how this still isn't enough, that players are handed all of that but still want the tiny handful of toys that "hardcore" players have on top of it and we're the ones looked down on and shamed. It's straight up selfish.

No one's asking for a super-achiever model or lots of exclusive content. All they want is an endgame that isn't afraid to ask for a bit of challenge, grind or difficulty.

Every time I go into Firmament events or see FC members crafting their own gear, it really shows a good game. They gave the "hardcore" crafters and gatherers things like Diadem, scrips farming, HQ gear, and crafting rankings.

There are 8 people in the entire Firmament on my world and 0 crafting in my FC right now. It's fast food content and most people devoured it months ago. Diadem, scrip farm and HQ gear are all currently casual content.

[VirusOnline]

Or it's called having a life outside of FFXIV. This is the holy grail when it comes to making a good mmorpg. Yoshida states correctly that he doesn't like the idea of making an mmorpg which is like a job where you lock people out if they don't have the time to log every day/few days to do prog static sessions. Of course they do have that as a niche part of the game for those who have no kind of real life outside of the game though. The super achiever model of mmorpgs is long dead, that generation of players has passed on into their late 40s and 50s. The changes they've done to gathering and crafting are pushing the game into the right direction. Every time I go into Firmament events or see FC members crafting their own gear, it really shows a good game. They gave the "hardcore" crafters and gatherers things like Diadem, scrips farming, HQ gear, and crafting rankings.

Firmament hardcore ?
Forgive me if this is your idea of sarcasm, but the Firmament can be considered as hardcore as Bozja.

Yoshida's idea of an mmo that can be dropped and picked up without losing much time regardless of how big or little span of time you break for heavily relies on casual mechanics. It's sad when our only midcore is considered Savage raiding and our only hardcore is considered Ultimates. In any other facet of this game, you will find no midcore or hardcore content. This is just how much casual content XIV is. It's not about being a super achiever model within the game. It's about instantiating levels of play within content like raiding, crafting, dungeoning, and rewarding appropriately. There's no midcore dungeon, no hardcore dungeon, no midcore crafting, no hardcore crafting.

There is hardly any middleground in this sea of casualness.
Yoshida forfeits balance so that we are instead left to realize content which become shallow and depthless after a while.

[Amnmaat]

What exactly were you locked out of when the game was more challenging? Maybe a handful of titles, a few mounts, 3-4 star current crafts and EX/Savage/Ultimate (with a lot of that still being possible on a limited time schedule if you were patient and wanted it). You then had many hundreds of other crafts, items to gather, all of the MSQ, all side quests, all job quests, all seasonal events, every dungeon in the game, every alliance raid, every 8 man raid Normal, every trial Normal, most of HoH/PotD, housing, PvP, all the beast tribes, hundreds of titles, mounts and minions, all Ex/Savage rewards a tier later via echo and all previous crafts as new gear came out. I don't understand how this still isn't enough, that players are handed all of that but still want the tiny handful of toys that "hardcore" players have on top of it and we're the ones looked down on and shamed. It's straight up selfish.

No one's asking for a super-achiever model or lots of exclusive content. All they want is an endgame that isn't afraid to ask for a bit of challenge, grind or difficulty.



There are 8 people in the entire Firmament on my world and 0 crafting in my FC right now. It's fast food content and most people devoured it months ago. Diadem, scrip farm and HQ gear are all currently casual content.

You're playing the wrong game

modern-day gamers are busy with a lot of things outside of playing games: spending time with family and loved ones, engaging in social media, and the like. Our mindset is to have the players pick and choose what they want to play within their schedule.

source: https://www.destructoid.com/stories/...--605273.phtml

[Wyakin]

@OP hello neighbour!

Do you miss the days of gear envy? Obviously glamour is great but I do miss the days of chilling in mor dhona or north shroud and checking peoples gear getting gear envy. Right up to HW raids, chilling near the zone to enter before everything became instanced. God I loved those days. Especially when I finally achieved that first clear and got my first end game weapon to show off

[Alice_Nightingale_Odin]

You're playing the wrong game


source: https://www.destructoid.com/stories/...--605273.phtml

I guess we are playing the wrong game. Because all I see is people that basically founded the base ff14 stands on leaving the game, the people that paid for their success and the game that included all these ways to play it, not just content for the "modern-day gamer" but both those and everyone else so we could all have a place to meet and play games together. I feel that the dream that ff14 filled for several years where it balanced around all these playstyles in a nice match where people learned to know people with all kinds of goals to achieve, or lack thereoff, is starting to just kinda leave. Mmorpgs to me are so wonderful because its a home for all kinds of gamers, not just one kind. And the more I play the game, the longer I do it, the more I see friends and other people Ive learned to know abandon it because the mix is not strifed for now. It's rather neglected so that one specific part of the playerbase, the "modern day gamer" has a game completely aimed exclusively towards them.

It's not a place to meet different kinds of people, it's starting to rather be a place to meet the exact same people as you are, and rather slowly push out the ones that aint by more progressively shift focus from all kinds of mmorpg players, to one kind. If thats what you want, then I'm happy for you. But diversity is what makes mmorpg communities so wonderful, and with time more people will leave that add to that diversity. Me included, even if that's not much of a loss.

[Xatsh]

FFXIV was never anything but a pure casual centric mmo, but expansion to expansion it is getting more and more casual, and for me it is a huge negative. I have watched everyone I came over with from XI quit this game long ago, 8 people who I brought over from other mmos quit within 6 months because there is simply no meat on the bones so to say. I have watched my guild go from 60 people to 10-20 active 4 times now in ffxiv because the game is setup as a revolving door of players. Maby they will come back some expansion in the future but that does not work for guild and community development, and guilds honestly are the main thing that makes a mmo worth playing. Now I have 4-5 people that still play this game which is the only reason I am still here. And 1 of them is now going to WoW because he has beaten everything and the last expansion added nothing but fluff content.

I have come to accept ffxiv for what it is because it is exactly what Yoshida wants. He wants a game that is ultra casual focused something you can pick up and put down. I highly disagree with his statement based on what I see on many mmo forums, discords, and other mmos I have played. Look at almost every kick starter and such with people throwing their money at indy studios trying to get anyone to make a true full mmo where it is more then just what we see in games like FFXIV and WoW:Bfa. There are just as maby people today as 10yrs ago who want a hardcore mmo, something that is never ending, something that is complex, something that has real risk vs reward. Now the instant gratification mmos, WoW, and several other games brought millions into the genre and the casual playerbase now vastly out numbers the midcore and hardcore bases. So I can see why studios want to focus on the larger population as it brings more money. Same reason some high ups in the industry are saying mobile mmorpgs are the future of the genre...

I say Yoshida is wrong, alot of the people of today are playing games like we are because we have no choice because they are being built that way by default. If you can only play a game for 10-15hrs a week... that is all you can play it. Whether you want to or not. Not saying this style of mmo is all bad though. There are alot of people who want to play a game like this. But the issue of AAA devs and such saying everyone today does is grossly incorrect.

[hansi379]

You're playing the wrong game


source: https://www.destructoid.com/stories/...--605273.phtml

Excuse me, but how is this an argument for someone playing the wrong game? Yoshida literally mentions that he wants his players to PICK and CHOOSE what they want WITHIN their SCHEDULE. If anything, this should mean that you're not supposed to complete everything. And that there's content for everyone. So why should we take away content from a subset of players, if there's supposedly so much to pick and choose from, that you don't have to do it all? If you don't have to do it all, then what's the problem with having some content that's outside some people's reach?

I personally consider the fishing log to be the hardest content in the game, given the amount of patience you need to complete it. Some time windows and probabilities are RIDICOLOUS. Yet you don't hear people complain about fisher's getting too much content, cause I bet you've never tried it so that you could feel insecure about it, as well as not even knowing what their titles are. I will respect a grandmaster caster title more for their patience than any legend title.

And yea that's one example, but it never gets brought up. It's always raids. I have no idea why exactly it's always about raids. But here we are.

And why are you against people who want to compete against themselves? To try to master the game? How does this hurt you in any way shape or form? It literally sounds like crab mentality to me. And that's very antisocial in a game that's built around doing activities with other players daily. Maybe you're the one who's playing the wrong game.

[Amnmaat]

Excuse me, but how is this an argument for someone playing the wrong game? Yoshida literally mentions that he wants his players to PICK and CHOOSE what they want WITHIN their SCHEDULE. If anything, this should mean that you're not supposed to complete everything. And that there's content for everyone. So why should we take away content from a subset of players, if there's supposedly so much to pick and choose from, that you don't have to do it all? If you don't have to do it all, then what's the problem with having some content that's outside some people's reach?

I personally consider the fishing log to be the hardest content in the game, given the amount of patience you need to complete it. Some time windows and probabilities are RIDICOLOUS. Yet you don't hear people complain about fisher's getting too much content, cause I bet you've never tried it so that you could feel insecure about it, as well as not even knowing what their titles are. I will respect a grandmaster caster title more for their patience than any legend title.

And yea that's one example, but it never gets brought up. It's always raids. I have no idea why exactly it's always about raids. But here we are.

And why are you against people who want to compete against themselves? To try to master the game? How does this hurt you in any way shape or form? It literally sounds like crab mentality to me. And that's very antisocial in a game that's built around doing activities with other players daily. Maybe you're the one who's playing the wrong game.

I'm not making decisions when it comes to making crafting/gathering easier, Yoship is. I just happen to agree with him.
I brought up their attempts to give the "hardcore" doh/dol players something to do like Ishgard firmament rankings, relics, etc.

The overarching point, which seems to have flown right over your head, was that every time they make a particular system easier it's done under the philosophy that people have a life outside of the game to spend it with family and other activities, as Yoship explains.