FF14 is not made for hardcore players.

[HeulGDarian]

snip

i wasnt trying to judge you, i took aform from you sayin not caring about others performance to make a general statement.......

[Seddrinth]

Well, do you think "git gud" is genuine and polite feedback? I appreciate tips and helpful advice. But I do not appreciate being told to "git gud". In fact in this very thread three people have responded with "git gud" without offering any other advice.

"git gud" is just a slang for "get good" which means they are rooting for your improvement. It may not be helpful but it is a positive message.

[Ursa_Vonfiebryd]

It is for some people. Sure, most people don't go in with a time expectation, but shorter is generally better than longer. That is why most 70+ dungeons have healers that contribute to damage and tanks that do full pulls. From that, I must reasonably conclude that people would prefer a shorter dungeon experience to a longer one.

But you've still not addressed my question. The act of costing others time, with no unbalanced cost to oneself, can be viewed as selfishness. I can list many real world examples, some of which reference time saves of less for more effort. So, for yet another time, I ask: Why is this selfishness deemed acceptable?

It boils down to whether you'd rather have a hard short day or an easier longer day. Factor in that not everyone will chose the same answer to that and you have the crux of the situation.

In the end, the OP's opening statement is correct. FF14 is not really tailored for the hardcore community. It makes allowances for them, but I agree that FF14 is largely based on casual/midcore play. However that does not excuse underperforming in hardcore/midcore instances which dungeons are not, imo. And especially roulette or leveling situations. Min-maxing or optimizing dungeons is just... a joke really. Especially leveling situations where your full range of skills aren't even available. 98% of the time, the tank that pulls the entire first room in Aurum Vale causes a wipe. Especially if they filled the party with Duty Finder and not people they know the skillsets of.

Expecting optimized runs with randomly qued individuals is just... not feasible. It happens sometimes and when it does it's wonderful, but joining a matched group that you know will bring unknown quantifiers then be unwilling to adjust or work around those new variables is well.. selfish also.

When people are really bad it shows, when people are only less good than you it's not as obvious and certainly more forgivable. An easy run isn't always the fast and hard run. It's when everyone agrees to get through it.

[MilitaryVet123]

Honestly, that seems to be the OP's full-time job...

That is ironic considering half the forums seem to complain about me and others not being good at a video game.

[Raelsar]

I'll just add in a few quick comments...

First off, there is a valid point in saying that the game is not intended to appeal to hardcore players only; it's quite evident when you start looking into stuff like the production values for the game. Where is the budget going to? The MSQ, which pretty much is the only piece of content in the game to have voice-acting (some sound bytes in encounters not withstanding). It's not Extreme, Savage, or Ultimate (all of which are spin-offs of other content), but the one thing that everyone does.

Second, the concern here isn't so much that hardcore content exists. It's about the expectations of the hardcore playerbase being applied to casual players in casual content. I've seen this slow deterioration before with WoW, and if it isn't kept in check, it can become a major detriment to the community of the game; everyone just becomes unpleasant as more and more people start demanding optimization and efficiency over having a good time here and now. Just because things can be optimized, it doesn't mean it MUST be optimized... or even should be for that matter. So long as you're clearing the content, then you're doing fine. Luckily, this seems to be the perspective shared by the developers.

And lastly... the hardcore playerbase needs to learn how to make their own challenges. The game can be easy at times, but quite often the best approach to adding in a challenge is not demand the game to give it to you but to create your own within the game's rules (and preferably without dragging in those who aren't interested in such things). There's a myriad of examples over the years across many genres: low level runs, no gear / naked runs (glamour gear only runs could work here), speed runs, and so on. Though the one thing to keep in mind is that you shouldn't expect the optimized (often a speedrun) from everyone without the explicit consent of the whole group; it's rather annoying when people are expecting that when not everyone is onboard with it, at least one person will be having a bad time and misery loves company.

---

Far too often when it comes to online games, players start to focus more on being efficient than having a good time. There's some value in that, true... but when it starts to become an expectation from everyone, it very quickly becomes a problem. Sometimes that means lowering your expectations and being helpful instead of constantly pushing people to up their performance.

You're unhappy, and you're making them unhappy too; no one is going to come out of such a run being anything other than miserable. So rather than be a jerk about it... stop worrying so much about it not being perfect and just enjoy something when it's good enough.

[Cerscent]

Troll post or not, Ima jump in cause why not....

This is why I think the 'casual' community is more toxic than players that do hardcore content. Just because we do savage raids / ultimate's, we're instantly flagged as toxic and assholes. For the record, I've had some of the best and most helpful in-game experiences with progress-parties in PF for savage content, with people that are flagged as 'toxic'. Are there toxic and elitist players in hardcore content? Sure, but not everyone is toxic.

There's also a fundamental flaw in your point, expecting you to play the game the way it's supposed to is not "expecting hardcore-level gameplay" from you. Skills combo with each other in certain ways because the game is designed that way, and if you're not doing you're doing it wrong.

Are you free to go into content as a WHM and just heal, and never cast Glare/Dia/Assize? Of course, but you're only using half of the class. It's not about 'optimization', it's about using your entire kit. That's like playing chess, but you're only using the pawns, and refuse to use any other piece.

Why is it toxic that I want players to use their classes the way they're meant to, but it's not toxic when a player in my party decides to waste my time and make a run 10+ mins longer than it should be?

I agree with the fact that this game is mostly casual, but if you're free to play the game the most laidback way you possibly can, then others are free to call you out / kick you when you're dragging them down.

Your point about reaction times is completely off-topic too, this game isn't about reaction times, it's about knowing mechanics and getting used to fights.

[linayar]

Just because we do savage raids / ultimate's, we're instantly flagged as toxic and assholes.

People who actually think like that (and not just using shorthand labels in discussions) are not representative of any meaningful segment of the "casual" community and discussions around this topic should not be framed to address that kind of crowd. It can easily lead to strawman arguments.

This is why I think the 'casual' community is more toxic than players that do hardcore content. ... Are there toxic and elitist players in hardcore content? Sure, but not everyone is toxic.

And that's why it's irrelevant to say that one part of the community is more toxic than the other because your experiences may vary with the people you meet and which side of the fence you stand.

[Granyala]

Far too often when it comes to online games, players start to focus more on being efficient than having a good time. There's some value in that, true... but when it starts to become an expectation from everyone, it very quickly becomes a problem.

Well, lets be fair about one thing: If a developer empathizes running content ad nauseum for [reward] and new content is sparse, people will get sick of it and they will value efficiency above all else. MMO are notorious for that but it really applies to any game that has meaningless busywork (a.k.a. grind) to do in order to tackle the fun stuff.

The more SE makes us run the same content over and over, the more pronounced this behavior will get. Very few people are impatient in content that is brand new. Skip ahead 3 months and the picture isn't nearly as forgiving.

[linayar]

The more SE makes us run the same content over and over, the more pronounced this behavior will get. Very few people are impatient in content that is brand new. Skip ahead 3 months and the picture isn't nearly as forgiving.

Yeah, it's unfortunate. To me, what makes it bearable is the timegating, so I'm not actually grinding nonstop and only doing a certain amount each day. Also, I view the random players/instances as potentials to make the run different each time, so I'm never that bored, though it depends on how my day had gone at work or elsewhere IRL.

[aCrowe]

What gives you the right to stress a player out who just wanted a nice relaxed dungeon run? He may just have come from work and be totally beat etc.
Who are you to decide what's right or not, especially in trivially easy content that does not require savage like performance?
See? I can easily turn that around, hence the subjective nature of these "community standards".

This is inherently incorrect. Because if people have invested a little time in reading about a rotation and practicing it against a dummy 5-10 min every time they play, eventually it will be muscle memory to just do. They can relax and perform at a decent level.

I don't get where this came up but I think all the casual players assume the raiders want people to play at the same level as them. Never in my time playing this game which is upcoming to 4 years have I seen anyone wanting a casual to play at a high level. Never. Not once. You make a few mistakes in your rotation in dungeons? No one is actually going to care. Its the fundamentals. You think anyone is deserving of a Samurai who literally presses 1-3 buttons on repeat the whole dungeon?

In fact, when I play white mage, I find it actually much harder to spam cure I on someone instead of using a regen and an occassional single target lily, pressing 1 button, holy, and looking at whatever video I want to watch.

Tanxiety or whatever people refer it to. Exists sure, but why bring your unexperienced self into the dungeon and waste peoples time because you are too anxious to play up to what is I believe standard now. I rarely see a tank single pull nowadays. Use your friends to help you get rid of your tanxiety, not randoms.

What people do in Savage and optimizing, I can guarantee you it goes way way way way more in depth than what is expected in Dungeons. Telling the raiding community that you don't want to be savage level isn't the right excuse because you are oblivious of what a lot of savage players actually do.

And people who have come back beaten from work? I'm gonna say that is tough. There are people who do the same and come to dungeons and perform up to standard, I know I do. In fact, I come back from 10+ hr shifts of standing all day long, ready to throw myself on the bed, but I come in and play up to standard in ultimate raids. You can say that well I can handle it unlike some others, but at that point, should they even try to unwind in FFXIV dungeons if people are asking for an average requirement? If you want to perform below what is average of the entire playerbase, you should find people to unwind with or don't dictate other peoples pace because of your tiredness. That is what is meant by being selfish.