FF14 is not made for hardcore players.

[Jojoya]

So genuine question here, but is that how you'd define hardcore content? Needing to "no life" to clear one tier before the next?

Does a game like that even exist? I mean I won't be surprised if the answer is yes but like...

Idk I just feel like the whole casual vs hardcore debate is kinda silly when there are so many, apparently wildly different, opinions on what "hardcore" and "casual" actually mean. @OP does anyone even actually believe this is a hardcore game? Is literally anyone unironically expecting "Savage" level performance from random pugs outside of Savage content (and genuinely believing that's a reasonable expectation)? I mean I'm certain there are some out there who do, but I sure hope it's not a huge number of people.

Expecting people to put in any level of effort at all to go beyond the absolute bare minimum in multiplayer content =/= being elitist.

I bolded an important part of what you said - these discussions are pretty silly when most games are casual entertainment played for leisure and relaxation. They're played to have fun. You don't have to be the best at something to have fun.

Player communities can't even agree about what is "casual" and what is "hardcore". Sometimes I wonder if the words they're looking for are "amateur" and "professional".

I agree it's not unreasonable to expect people to put in a minimum of effort in multiplayer content. The problem is part of the community has unreasonable expectations for what should be considered minimum of effort. They expect others to be 90th percentile quality in content that only requires 20th percentile effort to clear. They expect others to speed run the content so they can get to grinding out the next bit that much faster.

It is unreasonable to expect random players you encounter to meet those standards in content that does not demand that type and level of performance.

The test of whether or not someone is performing to a reasonable standard is whether the content can be cleared with all members performing at the same level. How do we know it's unreasonable for someone to AFK through Praetorium? Because if everyone was AFK, the content would not be cleared. How do we know it's unreasonable to only auto-attack through Castrum Abania? Because if everyone was auto-attacking, the content would not be cleared.

Tank isn't chain pulling wall to wall? That's fine. You don't have to pull wall to wall to clear the content.

Healer doesn't want to be green DPS? That's fine. As long as the healer is keeping the rest of the group alive, their DPS isn't needed to clear the content.

If someone wants the members of their party to all meet a certain standard, then they should be be pre-forming the party before they queue (like one would do for Savage where those things do start to matter). If you're going to use Duty Finder's random matchmaking, expect a random result. Expecting anything else is unreasonable.

No Savage isn't casual whatsoever. It takes time to gear up and learn the mechanics appropriately. It's not a trip to the bathroom.

Any good crafter can make the gear you need for Savage in about an hour.

Yes, it will take time to learn mechanics but that still doesn't make it hardcore.

Never said someone can clear Savage by going to the bathroom.

You sound like you have an investment in wanting to believe Savage is more than it really is - a more challenging form of casual content.

Games are for casuals. There, I said it. Games are for people who don't have anything better to do with their time.

As for FFXIV.. it offers multiple challenges and battle content isn't necessarily restricted to casual content. The Ishgard Restoration proved dedication is rewarded. In fact, I managed to score there too, albeit not far.

I've got the Pteranodon. I grinded it out casually over 18 months. That too was casual content even if more challenging compared to standard crafting.

The only reason more crafters don't have it is because it was an annoying long grind for an uninspired reward (yay, I can ride Aswang that I kill for my weekly B hunt bill?) so they didn't bother wasting their time.

The Expert grind is actually a good example of why reliance on completion rates is not a true indicator of difficulty and skill. A lot of people skip content they're perfectly capable of doing because they just don't find the content or the reward interesting enough to go to the effort.

[Nethereal]

Games are for casuals. There, I said it. Games are for people who don't have anything better to do with their time.

Yeah not gunna lie that's not a good argument.
Games are hobbies and hobbies are done because they're something you enjoy using your time on over other things, not the other way around.
Plenty of people have "better" stuff they could be doing while they're doing their hobby, doesn't make it casual by definition.
In fact even the most casual of hobbies can become competitive in certain environments.

We could go even further down this rabbit hole by saying that if you make money off of your hobby its now become a job.
If you make money off of knitting sweaters because you've practiced for years and are better than most of your competition does it stay casual or have you just become so good regardless of the amount of effort you put in it can no longer be considered casual.

IMO hobbies can be both "Casual" and "Hardcore" they're not exclusive. What matters is the environment and the approach that's being taken when engaging in the hobby.

[Edenn]

[Shuuli]

May I ask where have you met in the game with a situation where a savage player could talk down on a non-savage content player?

Usually you don't need to play savage content to unlock the story. People either play it for prestige or for the glams. And it is not mandatory.

Usually the only people who get frustrated in any content are the burgerking crown owners.

I feel that normal story content is usually quite easy to do. Everything besides that is just player choice to do.

[Maxilor]

*Reads through thread casually*

[Izscha]

*Reads through thread casually*

50 shades of grey is really a masterpiece since it's so popular *cough*

[linayar]

Definitions of hardcore:
- intensely loyal; die-hard
- stubbornly resistant to improvement or change
- extremely graphic or explicit

Definitions of casual:
- relaxed and unconcerned
- not regular or permanent
- happening by chance; accidental
- without formality of style or manner

Given the above, it seems the way of contrasting the two terms in gaming is to contrast one player's dedication to a gaming content/group with another player's relaxed and unconcerned attitude toward that same gaming content/group, which may or may not lead to irregular or impermanent participation on the part of the latter.

This means that someone who is dedicated to doing Ultimate content in FFXIV is a hardcore Ultimate raider regardless of if they're any good at it. Of course, people who are not good at something can get discouraged and lose their motivation to do it, so most hardcore players are good (or eventually become good) at the thing they are hardcore for, in part, due to their dedication at doing it.

As another example, someone who is dedicated to finishing a long grind is a hardcore grinder regardless of how long it takes, even if they only play one hour a month due to scheduling issues with something else. Though, again, depending on their hardcore level, the grind can become their priority, and that's where "no-lifing" could occur.

For a casual player, someone who is relaxed and unconcerned about a particular aspect of gaming would tend to not be as good at it as they could be and/or they tend to be ok with others not being as good as them at it. That, I think, defines a casual player better when contrasted with a hardcore player who is dedicated/loyal to that same aspect of gaming.

On the other hand, if "not regular or permanent" is the emphasis on defining casual, it would not fit as well as someone can be both casual and hardcore at the same time, like the previous example of someone who is grinding something, but cannot do it as often as they'd like due to scheduling issues, but is still determined to finishing the grind no matter how long it takes.

[Nethereal]

Definitions of hardcore:
- intensely loyal; die-hard
- stubbornly resistant to improvement or change
- extremely graphic or explicit

Definitions of casual:
- relaxed and unconcerned
- not regular or permanent
- happening by chance; accidental
- without formality of style or manner

I would say this is the best explanation on how I use the term casual. It's just a matter of dedication and time investment not necessarily in relation to skill or immediate time sink.

Labeling things "hardcore" and "casual" honestly is broad enough IMO to help know what type of group or content you could potentially getting yourself into, it's when you start getting things like "Casual Hardcore", "Hardcore Casual", "Light Hardcore", and "Semi-Hardcore" that things start becoming convoluted.
Especially when pertaining to groups I take it as a advertisement of what type of content the group will be expecting to do in the future where having a preformed group is a bigger pro than a pf group.
In terms of labeling actual content hardcore or casual I think that just falls under the general populace consensus.


Ultimate is considered hardcore because the biggest limitation is time on multiple fronts. Savage is barely considered hardcore because of the mechanical leaps it takes from extreme.
So when it comes to reasons to label things and how to label them I think they have their place but they're very subjective.
Some people could consider savage very hardcore and ultimate casual simply because they've played for so long have such a solid group and have a huge brain but at the end of the day it comes down to what the populace thinks.
End of the day though I don't think we should forget regardless of what the populace think they can be wrong & things can be different than how they're being perceived.

[linayar]

at the end of the day it comes down to what the populace thinks.
End of the day though I don't think we should forget regardless of what the populace think they can be wrong & things can be different than how they're being perceived.

I think the common attitude can help differentiate the content.

From what I've seen in NA region:

Normal content - Just queue for it.
Extreme content - Better to use PF.
Savage content - Use PF, but maybe think of having a static.
Ultimate content - Definitely think of having a static, but at least use PF otherwise.

So, instead of worrying about whether a piece of content is casual or hardcore, it's better to compare it to others and say it more/less casual or more/less hardcore than other types of content in terms of dedication/relaxation/concern required in clearing a content.

[Anhra]

Definitions of hardcore:
- intensely loyal; die-hard
- stubbornly resistant to improvement or change
- extremely graphic or explicit

Definitions of casual:
- relaxed and unconcerned
- not regular or permanent
- happening by chance; accidental
- without formality of style or manner

There are some convenient half-truths and half-lies mixed in there. Being either a Hardcore MMO Player or Casual Player is all about time commitment, nothing more and nothing less.

A Hardcore Player is someone who willing to play many Hours of one type of Content (often in one go without putting much time into necessary things such as sleep or hygiene for example) until he gets the desired result or object. A good example for this in FFXIV terms, would be if you would aim for the Triceratops/Centurio Mount and try to catch EVERY single Hunt train and callout for the next 3 Months or so, or, if you spent 16+ Hours crafting every day just to get that Pteranodon Mount, until the point of obtaining it.

Now a casual Player, is nothing more than someone, who only runs Content on his own Terms and never for truly a long period of time. Doing the same Grinds as mentioned above, but only every now and then, like for example, after getting off work and playing 1-5 Hours every now and then, is already considered as playing casually.



Tl;dr: Attitude has nothing to do with someone being hardcore or casual, its all about time commitment.