"Cheating" - Walkthroughs on Solo Game vs MMOs

[Nekaru_Infitima]

So this is something that's been bothering me a while looking at the forums and how people just expect others to read guides and videos even when they're new, or fighting something for the very first time.

Why is it considered cheating by other gamers if you pick up a walkthrough in the past for say.. FF7, FF8, FF9 and used it to get everything learn everything and play?

But on this game, the moment you go into 'old content' (even if it's not old to you) you're expected to have watched a video on the fight or read the wiki. A lot of 'go read the wiki' from people?

Is that not cheating also? If one starts out this game and all they do is follow the wiki, multiplayer or not. Is that not the same as using a walkthrough or strategy guide back in the day?

I personally don't want to cheat and learn things myself. But that seems to tick people off.

[Vyrerus]

The idea behind not using walkthroughs for a single player game is so that you don't spoil the experience by reading ahead/knowing all of the twists in the plot. A lot of guides and walkthroughs aren't spoiler free. The societal idea behind that is people want you to enjoy the game more and learn to play it yourself. A lot of guides also only opt for middle of the road tactics.

These kinds of things are true for MMORPG fight guides and the like as well, but in the MMO setting you are doing content with other people. People have different priorities and concerns in regards to fights. Most people just want to win, they don't want to think. Basically, we as a player base encourage guide use in order for people to learn a way to win the fight that everyone in the group can agree on and adjust around. There's more than one way to handle a lot of the mechanics in this game, but if 1/8 person is trying to freestyle what they learned on their own vs. what the 7/8 other people are doing, it can lead to death and wipes. So it's mostly about getting sympatico with the groups you're joining, have consideration for the 7 other people and their wants and needs vs. your own. If you want to learn fights without guides, just find 7 other people with the same mentality and prog with them.

Edit: Also, as an aside. A lot of people use walkthroughs and guides with no qualms for single player games, usually due to impatience. It can be surprising to learn, but there are tons of people who've never played a game without consulting a guide.

[Nekaru_Infitima]

The idea behind not using walkthroughs for a single player game is so that you don't spoil the experience by reading ahead/knowing all of the twists in the plot. A lot of guides and walkthroughs aren't spoiler free. The societal idea behind that is people want you to enjoy the game more and learn to play it yourself. A lot of guides also only opt for middle of the road tactics.

These kinds of things are true for MMORPG fight guides and the like as well, but in the MMO setting you are doing content with other people. People have different priorities and concerns in regards to fights. Most people just want to win, they don't want to think. Basically, we as a player base encourage guide use in order for people to learn a way to win the fight that everyone in the group can agree on and adjust around. There's more than one way to handle a lot of the mechanics in this game, but if 1/8 person is trying to freestyle what they learned on their own vs. what the 7/8 other people are doing, it can lead to death and wipes. So it's mostly about getting sympatico with the groups you're joining, have consideration for the 7 other people and their wants and needs vs. your own. If you want to learn fights without guides, just find 7 other people with the same mentality and prog with them.

I get that. But the question is still. Doesn't that still count as cheating?
This game is story based. Using a wiki to find all the aethercurrents is the same as using a strategy guide to find all the hidden weapons (FF9).
Using a video/guide to know the mechanics of a fight and how to do it is the same as using a strategy guide to know the best tactic and buildup for a boss in the old FF games.

In the past you weren't considered a real gamer if you cheated and looked everything up. People would say 'git gud' and say you didn't do it yourself.

Now, if you DON'T cheat, you're not a real gamer because you died and people still say 'git gud'.

The standards have changed.

[Vyrerus]

I get that. But the question is still. Doesn't that still count as cheating?
This game is story based. Using a wiki to find all the aethercurrents is the same as using a strategy guide to find all the hidden weapons (FF9).
Using a video/guide to know the mechanics of a fight and how to do it is the same as using a strategy guide to know the best tactic and buildup for a boss in the old FF games.

In the past you weren't considered a real gamer if you cheated and looked everything up. People would say 'git gud' and say you didn't do it yourself.

Now, if you DON'T cheat, you're not a real gamer because you died and people still say 'git gud'.

The standards have changed.

No, it's just the same as in Sports when one coach watches a team they're about to face's game footage for the current and previous season. You learn most of their tricks, and then your team performs better on game day, supposedly.

As for guides being cheating, well no, they're not. They do remove some of the challenge, but they don't do so through unlawful means. There's no hard rules with video games, beyond altering/exploiting coding. Believing that there are is basically endorsing a form of Slave morality. Unless you're altering the game code to win or using tools you're not supposed to have, stuff that's specifically against the ToS for instance, then that's a form of cheating. But guides are just information. How well you absorb or use their information is up to you, and they don't win the fights for you.

Also, I'd say that the reason the mentality is different between an MMO and a single player game is that the challenges are different. In one, it's supposed to be all on you to win the game. Using a guide is using someone else. In the other, it's a team oriented affair. Your individual contribution matters greatly, but it's more important that you don't weigh the team down, rather than be clever or egotistical.

The old mentality about guides is all an ego thing.

[Penthea]

Why is it considered cheating by other gamers if you pick up a walkthrough in the past for say.. FF7, FF8, FF9 and used it to get everything learn everything and play?

I don't consider it cheating but I do consider it as a way to experience the game the devs did not intend. If the devs intended players to have a walkthrough, then games would be constantly holding their hands and alerting them about everything.

I'm fine with people using walkthroughs. Each to their own. It doesn't affect my enjoyment of games and it is by no means making the gaming industry worse.

However people should be cautious when using walkthroughs, especially those that are fan-made. I know a couple of people who got major story spoilers because of walkthroughs.

Anyway using walkthroughs could only be considered cheating if the terms of service for the game specifically state that you are not allowed to access information from outside the game to help you.

[Zomkei]

are you talking about dungeons and story trials? because as far as i have seen, no one expects you to watch a guide. unless you come in demanding them to explain mechanics to you, most of them couldn't care less if you mess up. the only time i've seen people demand you watch a guide is for EX trials , savages, and ultimates. if you want to do those blind, you could always just put a PF up for that specifically though.

and to add a note, if you're just doing story mode / dungeons, and someone DOES complain you didn't watch a guide, just ignore them lol

[Nekaru_Infitima]

are you talking about dungeons and story trials? because as far as i have seen, no one expects you to watch a guide. unless you come in demanding them to explain mechanics to you, most of them couldn't care less if you mess up. the only time i've seen people demand you watch a guide is for EX trials , savages, and ultimates. if you want to do those blind, you could always just put a PF up for that specifically though.

and to add a note, if you're just doing story mode / dungeons, and someone DOES complain you didn't watch a guide, just ignore them lol

Had someone tell our party 'videos exist' on normal non-savage Deltascape 2 raid after going back and doing it. (I neglected it my playthrough and now at endgame bored going back and doing things I didn't do.)
But that's not the first time. I've seen on the forum people try to hammer guides down peoples throats and not waste their time because they want to roulette and get things done as fast as possible. Even if it's new to the player.

Honestly I wish there was a Dutyfinder option like Party Finder to set it to just people who haven't done that fight yet. The first time around. Then open it to roulettes after.

[MariaArvana]

are you talking about dungeons and story trials? because as far as i have seen, no one expects you to watch a guide. unless you come in demanding them to explain mechanics to you, most of them couldn't care less if you mess up. the only time i've seen people demand you watch a guide is for EX trials , savages, and ultimates. if you want to do those blind, you could always just put a PF up for that specifically though.

and to add a note, if you're just doing story mode / dungeons, and someone DOES complain you didn't watch a guide, just ignore them lol

^This. The only time people actually care/should care if you've read a guide or not is EX/Savage/Ultimate, where trying to go in blind when there's guides available is an active detriment to the other 7 players you've partied with and essentially saying your time is more important than the time of 7 other players due to the high volume of one-hit kill mechanics, dps checks, and mechanics where if one person messes up, results in a full raid wipe. Unless you've all mutually agreed to it through day 1 prog or a pre-made of people wanting to enjoy it blind for the thrill, whereas in a single player game your actions of going blind affect no one but yourself.

The mental difference of walkthroughs being cheating offline vs MMOs is the difference between partying with many others who value their time (MMO) vs your choice of blind progression vs guides affecting only yourself in an offline game.

From my long experience of doing roulettes, no one has ever said 'did you watch a guide', usually only giving tips if a person dies to a mechanic multiple times or if someone asks something along the lines of 'new here, should I watch for anything'?

[Jojoya]

I get that. But the question is still. Doesn't that still count as cheating?
This game is story based. Using a wiki to find all the aethercurrents is the same as using a strategy guide to find all the hidden weapons (FF9).
Using a video/guide to know the mechanics of a fight and how to do it is the same as using a strategy guide to know the best tactic and buildup for a boss in the old FF games.

In the past you weren't considered a real gamer if you cheated and looked everything up. People would say 'git gud' and say you didn't do it yourself.

Now, if you DON'T cheat, you're not a real gamer because you died and people still say 'git gud'.

The standards have changed.

It wasn't cheating in the first place. Cheating is doing something the game does not intend or allow to gain some advantage to progression. If the Terms of Use included a clause stating users cannot share information about game play with others, then it would be cheating. I don't think any game has such a provision. The closest you get are alpha/beta testing NDAs where the developer doesn't want too much information leaked in advance of the game's release.

Those who call it cheating are the hardcore gaming purists who think a player should have to figure out everything on their own. Then there's the rest of the gaming community that understands sharing knowledge is the better way to go, especially in a MMO where player interaction is a core part of game play.

You don't need to worry about it.

[Edax]

I get that. But the question is still. Doesn't that still count as cheating?.

Knowledge is knowledge.