How Would You Design Red Mage!?

[Eremor]

Yeah simplistic response, yeah I understand that white and black magic are covered, and yeah there are examples of alternate forms of magic in previous FF games (and previously in XIV as well, Thaumaturge...).

However I still don't agree that RDM needs to be a top-line DPS in order to be accepted in the front lines, there should be a way to make RDM desirable without just turning into another generic DPS slot, not to mention the fact that there isn't any need for another DPS at this time, other roles still need to be filled. So if the general consensus is that Red Mage should be a DPS job (which would be fine with me) then it should certainly be postponed until the second round of job additions.

To be clear, I'm not advocating for the specific build the OP presented, I made my own suggestion in the previous thread which focused more on Enspells. With the traditional spells only being the secondary means of debuffing (due to the crowd control adjustments). A Red Mage that inflicts Defense Down with every hit might be a little more welcome in melee despite the fact his own damage isn't top notch. Which is exactly what I would like out of Red Mage, a support role job isn't about being powerful yourself, it's about making everyone else even better.

[Duelle]

However I still don't agree that RDM needs to be a top-line DPS in order to be accepted in the front lines

To be honest, if Fencer/RDM was within 5% overall DPS of a DRG, I'd probably be happy. The difference is so miniscule that your average group leader would not turn a FNC/RDM down due to low damage (they could use something else like "all DPS spots are taken", which is more than fair).

So if the general consensus is that Red Mage should be a DPS job (which would be fine with me) then it should certainly be postponed until the second round of job additions.

Agreed.

Which is exactly what I would like out of Red Mage, a support role job isn't about being powerful yourself, it's about making everyone else even better.

Until the group figures a way around having you in the party and replacing you with a "real" damage dealer.

I'm not trying to antagonize you, by the way. I'm just speaking from experience and seeing that approach tried and failed.

[Eremor]

Until the group figures a way around having you in the party and replacing you with a "real" damage dealer.

True, but this is pretty much the case with every job. PLD gets replaced by the 'real' tank, ARC gets replaced by the 'real' ranged DD, DRG gets replaced by the 'real' melee DPS.

But thats why you add some versatility, the enspells aren't the only form of debuffs, maybe there will be cases where spells like silence or paralyze will more then make up for the lack of DPS. My build also includes Refresh and Haste, I don't mind refresh being part of the Red Mage's role (just so long as it doesn't become the only role), a good support role job should be able to enhance all other jobs not just the melee DPS.

Edit: And when in XI was Bard ever replaced with a 'real' DD?

[Duelle]

True, but this is pretty much the case with every job. PLD gets replaced by the 'real' tank, ARC gets replaced by the 'real' ranged DD, DRG gets replaced by the 'real' melee DPS.

And this distinction should not exist, as it urinates on your ability to choose to play a job. You then become unable to play a job because you like it and instead have play a job because it is the most efficient.

And when in XI was Bard ever replaced with a 'real' DD?

Bard =/= Red Mage. Bard had no melee option built in, and instead was just a buff job. Red Mage had a melee option as part of the concept but it was abandoned in favor of enfeebling, heals and refresh.

Whats with all these threads about red mage all of a sudden?

If there was a poll about jobs, it was bound to happen. When XIV was first announced the first thread made in Allakhazam's XIV forums was "Red Mage". The direction the job took in XI has caused arguments and trolling from both who liked the backrow caster and those who wanted to melee, so it is not surprising to see that re-emmerge here again.

[Eremor]

And this distinction should not exist

Unfortunately as long as more then one person is playing the game this distinction will always exist

All we can do is try to mitigate it as best we can with balances or play with good friends who just want to play the jobs they like and let others do the same.

As for BRD vs RDM, I can't speak for after the level cap was raised past 75 but at 75 a competent BRD with a good dagger could easily out DPS a RDM because they had access to better weaponskills (Dancing Edge) and because their buffs were superior to anything RDM had.

Not that that matters at all here with Barcher, which gives me a good idea, RDM DPS should probably be best compared to Bard damage here, I think that would be a good target goal.