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  1. #31
    Player
    Alleo's Avatar
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    Light Khah
    World
    Moogle
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    Arcanist Lv 91
    Not only do people have magic but an empire that big (as in spanning nearly the whole world) would also make it weak. You would have to make the people happy otherwise they will rebell and if enough rebell and your materials and soldiers are stretched thin even a nation like that can fall.
    (0)

  2. #32
    Player
    EdwinLi's Avatar
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    4,887
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    Edwin Li
    World
    Balmung
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    Machinist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by LineageRazor View Post
    Which, of course, played perfectly into the society Solus was moulding which included a culture of racial superiority. He took a hold of the well-deserved pride at their achievements, and planted the seeds to ensure that the Garleans believed that their achievements were because they were innately BETTER than the other races, lack of magic ability be damned. The other races had banished them to the north out of jealousy - not becuase they were easy pickings (which is likely the actual reason early Garleans were bullied). Now it was time to take back what was theirs - and once that was done, to "protect" the savage races from their own Primal problem since they were clearly doing a terrible job of reining in the Beastmen themselves!
    Well in a certian way they contributed to the Primal problem as well as Emet designed them to do once Primal summoning became possible after events of Silvertear Lake. By forcing certain races that had no reason to depend on Primals into a corner through force and exterminations instead of reasoning with them first they force them into desperation to depend on their so called Primal. Thus where the lesser Acians comes in to provide them the knowledge once they are desperate enough.

    Their pride blinded them in how they also contributed to the Primal issue and some Garleans even tried to use Primals as justification for continued aggression.
    (0)

  3. #33
    Player
    Vyrerus's Avatar
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    May 2014
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    Vicious Zvahl
    World
    Excalibur
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    Machinist Lv 100
    Aside from, "Because the Scriptwriter said so" it would be for several reasons:

    1. Due to how suddenly the Garlean Empire started conquering places something like what, 88 years ago in game? They haven't had the time to really, fully integrate all of the nations brought under their yoke into being fully loyal. This means they have to have occupational forces in every corner of their empire.

    2. Since the Emperor is worshipped as a god, the position is highly coveted. This is by Emet-selch's design, in order to make succession as chaotic as possible. He was their first emperor, and he didn't name a successor on purpose to initiate a power vacuum feud. This means that since 2.1 the Garlean Empire has been fighting itself, even after Varis took up the mantle, personal feuds persisted such that Legati that should have been assisting one another in various imperial endeavors would not. The Empire is not unified, by any stretch of the imagination, and empires that get that big are historically unstable.

    3. There's large concern by the Eorzean Alliance in the ARR storyline with regards to the Empire marshalling its strength and taking an interest in conquering Eorzea again. The leader NPCs even admit that if the Empire could unify just a few legions, then they could take Eorzea with little difficulty. The Empire can't though, for the aforementioned reasons.

    4. Poor resource management. The Empire seems to be obsessed with spectacle and giant dreadnaught style battleships, as evidenced first by the Agrius (Midgardsormr done did sink it), and then again later with the Gration in Heavensward (Ysayle done did force it to dock with Azys Lla, seemingly permanently). These were to be the bulk of their overwhelming show of force and power, intended to stop opposition before it began. They put almost all of the manufacturing eggs into these baskets at the time, when they would have been better served by doing what they're doing now, tailing us with spies and bringing back the technology that we largely ignore, and then adapting it to individual mechs and new aircrafts/magitek units. They'd be better served by smaller, more maneuverable aircraft, as evidenced by just how many of the larger ships were shot down in the Ghimlyt Dark.

    5. Poor allocation of equipment. Rather than equipping their soldiers with the latest and greatest, they all seem to still be using the generic Garlean armors since ARR. So the Garleans wear that Black or Red armor uniform and the grunt conscripts use the leather body outfits/halfrobes with the pot helms. Many of them do not use guns, and use melee weapons comparable to what we use. Maybe if they weren't so busy pouring almost all of their resources into giant dreadnaughts, they could outfit every foot soldier with armor comparable to Gaius's or Regula's, but they do not. Imagine if they did though, instead of fighting a legion of dudes in the equivalent of Raptorskin leather, we're fighting dudes in Magitek Cybernetic Super Suits instead.

    6. They are poor tacticians. Not once have the Garleans been shown to be tactical masterminds, preferring the brute force/overwhelming force method every time. They have many talented engineers, but no talented war minds.

    7. They have many defectors, including their most brilliant scientists. So, they still have really smart dudes working for them, developing new mecha and refurbishing allagan ingenuity, but they've lost Cid and Nero. They lost Cid's Dad to Bahamut. Brilliant minds are the crux of their "advantage," and without them they're left using tech that eventually breaks down. Imagine having to try and use the same car for as long as you possibly could without anyone to properly maintenance it. A lot of Garleans believe themselves above that sort of work too, even conscripts, and they attempt to force it on peasant folk as well. For as dangerous as Magitek can be, it still has the inherent limitation that all machinery does. Needs maintenance and fuel.

    8. The intrinsic limitation of Magitek - It can be used by almost anyone. Magitek devices are built to be user friendly. Just about anyone can repurpose it for their own needs, and just as we've seen with us stealing a Magitek Reaper or more recently, the Bozjan Resistance repurposing a Tunnel Armor, if you do manage to defeat Garleans, then you can steal their tech, completely absconding with their "advantage."

    9. There don't seem to be any Garlean boot camps or training programs for conscripts: Conscripts are given a few options. Either you know how to fight and get shipped off to fight, or you don't, and you get forced into a logistics/maintenance oriented role. You are given training for neither. This does not make for a strong army.

    10. Garleans care not for Aethereytes. They can't use them, not the purebloods, and even those who can use them, the Conscripts, do not get to use them. Exceptions would lie with non-pureblood spies. When they conquer an area, the Garleans do not destroy the aethereytes. In fact, they seem to leave them completely unmolested. It's as if they do not know what they are for, at all. You'd think that they'd have the most basic of tactical acumens and could at least make them priority targets during war, but nope, they don't do jackshit against aethereytes.

    11. Next to no Naval power. It's said that there are Garlean ships about that the Limsan privateers and pirates often perform raids on, and we know that Ceruleum engines can be used to make travel by ship far faster, but we're never shown any Garlean examples. Yet, we live in a world where deep sea submersibles are commonly made, even by players, so where the hell is the Garleans' Navy? You'd think they'd have developed aircraft carriers by now, so that they don't have to always fly over land to and from the Garlean capital, constantly wasting so much Ceruleum. If they can make something like the Agrius or the Gration fly, then there's no reason that they couldn't make something like them that floats. They could have one for each major coast, and it'd cut their fuel expenditures for their airships by so much that they'd pay for themselves.

    12. No modern equivalent of artillery. The closest thing we get is that big ass cannon in Stormblood that Estinien disables. If they had proper long-range artillery though, then they'd be far more effective at winning land battles. Hell, if they'd had proper artillery mounted on Ala Mhigo's ramparts, then breaching those front gates would have been nigh impossible for the resistance.

    Basically, the short of it is, the Garleans seem super advanced because of their weird sci-fi fantasy tech, but they're actually fairly simplistic and still controlled by a primitive, braindead leadership. To them, technology is more or less a big cudgel.
    (7)

    (Signature portrait by Amaipetisu)

    "I thought that my invincible power would hold the world captive, leaving me in a freedom undisturbed. Thus night and day I worked at the chain with huge fires and cruel hard strokes. When at last the work was done and the links were complete and unbreakable, I found that it held me in its grip." - Rabindranath Tagore

  4. #34
    Player
    VargasVermillion's Avatar
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    Aug 2013
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    Ul'dah
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    851
    Character
    Val Vermillion
    World
    Tonberry
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 80
    Pretty sure even the most basic soldiers are regarded as well equipped in the lore, the standard uniforms are described as being made from carbonfibre alloys (same materials/textures as ironworks/scaven gear) and are as light as possible while providing maximum protection, I'd say it's the imperial equivalent of mail but lighter (mail can feel heavier than plate due to weight distribution) with the main weakness being impact absorption. Their magitek based units would be very expensive ofc but they also have factories to mass produce such things and naturally the demand requires a lot of forced labor as we have seen.
    (1)
    Last edited by VargasVermillion; 10-23-2020 at 09:04 PM.

  5. #35
    Player
    Cilia's Avatar
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    Trpimir Ratyasch
    World
    Lamia
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    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Vyrerus View Post
    Aside from, "Because the Scriptwriter said so" it would be for several reasons:

    [...]

    Basically, the short of it is, the Garleans seem super advanced because of their weird sci-fi fantasy tech, but they're actually fairly simplistic and still controlled by a primitive, braindead leadership. To them, technology is more or less a big cudgel.
    To clarify and point out a few things:

    1. Garlemald's path of conquest began only ~50 years ago. Yes, they do need occupational forces in every conquered territory to keep the populace in line because their harsh treatment of non-Garleans naturally incites rebellions.

    4. Having relatively recently changed from a forsaken backwater into the world superpower, the Imperials' love of giant airships and shows of force over practicality makes sense. They haven't learned what I call the "Bismarck Lesson;" the bigger it is, the harder it is to steer and the easier it is to hit. They're little kids who think Cloud's Buster Sword is the awesomest thing ever because it's huge, even though anyone who's ever used a real sword would tell you there's no way a real person could possibly use that slab of metal as an actual weapon.

    5. In fairness, standard foot soldiers (non-conscripts) do appear to be wearing similar suits of magitek power armor. Legatuses and Tribuni, being higher on the totem pole, just get to customize their armor and equipment loadouts. Even the equipment worn by conscripts is actually made of above average material, using carbon fiber for the best protection / weight ratio available. They could scrap some equipment like impractical Agrius-class airships for more, but giving conscripts those suits of power armor is unnecessary given they can use magic (and dangerous besides; a legion of mostly conscripts with the power armor would be more like to turn on their masters, and with both magitek power armor and magic at their disposal...).

    6. We've been told they're brilliant tacticians, but the Garleans' main strength in "tactics" seems to be the employment of spies and subterfuge. The one tactically brilliant (if horrible) thing we've seen them do is when Zenos fired on Specula Imperatoris while the battle was ongoing / shortly after it concluded, catching the Eorzeans unawares and killing many of them (but also his own troops). Other than that they do appear to rely entirely on brute force (and even do some very stupid things from a tactical standpoint, like carpet bombing Dalmasca in a show of force even though it's a necessary refueling station for optimal performance in the region).

    10. Though they don't seem to use them, there is the possibility that conscripts will use aetherytes for Trojan Horse operations etc. The House of the Fierce's aetheryte was destroyed for this express purpose, though to our knowledge they've never actually been used in this way.

    11. It's been explicitly stated that Limsa's navy is superior to Garlemald's. The Empire hasn't focused on building up a navy because the seas around their home territory in northern Ilsabard are frozen for much of the year, making naval power hard to employ; that and their rapid development of an air force has left them blind to the tactical advantages of things like aircraft carriers.

    (With all the technology at their disposal ice shouldn't be an obstacle to an Imperial navy, or their airships would deal with this:



    ... but apparently ice is only an issue on the seas.)
    (9)
    Last edited by Cilia; 10-25-2020 at 07:43 AM.
    Trpimir Ratyasch's Way Status (7.3 - End)
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    "There is no hope in stubbornly clinging to the past. It is our duty to face the future and march onward, not retreat inward." -Sovetsky Soyuz, Azur Lane: Snowrealm Peregrination

  6. #36
    Player
    Vyrerus's Avatar
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    May 2014
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    Vicious Zvahl
    World
    Excalibur
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    Machinist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Cilia View Post
    Step 1. Cut a hole in the box. Step 2. Put your magitek junk in that box. 3. Have Eorzea open the box. THAT IS HOW YA DO IT, YEAH! :P
    But to be serious uhh, those are some good points. I'd point out some stuff though.

    5. Not sure if you've done the Gunbreaker questline, but the shock collars they implement on normal high power, high skill conscripts would work well enough, and they could even make conscript power armor come with it as a feature. Pesky conscripts revolting in their full power-suit? Press the Zap-Zap button! These conscripts come with two Zap-Zap buttons. :3c

    6. I always felt that was more or less a punishment more than a tactical choice. Zenos was more-so punishing his incompetent soldiers who let the Resistance get that far, while simultaneously testing Fordola's resolve.

    10. Yeah, the fear was that Zenos would order unattuned conscripts to try to force up the aether channel and teleport directly in. They were never given the chance, but I mean, in order for Zenos to give such an order, he would have to be versed in aetherology on like, Moenbryda levels of knowledge. Given that he's Garlean, it was more the writers thinking they needed to explain it away ( and really to deny us northern aethereyte access, in spite of Namai's being basically adjacent).

    11. Huh, I must have missed the explicit statement. I believe it though. Damn Imperials, underestimating the tactical advantage of the sea! BRB, gonna go start blaring the Thames theme from Xenogears into their capital city.

    Yay, an Ironman reference. Love that movie.
    (0)

    (Signature portrait by Amaipetisu)

    "I thought that my invincible power would hold the world captive, leaving me in a freedom undisturbed. Thus night and day I worked at the chain with huge fires and cruel hard strokes. When at last the work was done and the links were complete and unbreakable, I found that it held me in its grip." - Rabindranath Tagore

  7. #37
    Player
    Jirah's Avatar
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    Character
    Jira Dal'riata
    World
    Ultros
    Main Class
    Bard Lv 100
    The goals of the acians (or the UNsundered) is ending the world to be rejoined to the source then to offer up the source remaining inhabitants as sacrifice to Zodiark to resurrect the ancient as told by Emet. In order to achieve this they aided humanity to form mega civilizations like Allag to perpetuate war and terror and eventually calamities. Fast forward to modern day and the Ascians saved Garlamald from the brink of collapse with the discovery of Ceruleum, a vital resource that advanced islabard to a industrial revoultion and to unearth Allag relics to continue the carnage as the last calamity costed the allags its civilization (Which we need to shred some light at some point on how they died off)

    In order to achieve the results they require for calamities, the need to be the dominate force of the realm so they conquer all of Ilsabard. Them extend thier hands in Othard and Ala Migho with relative ease then have their sights set on Mor Dohna, which backfires due to those pesky dragons. They attempt to just throw the moon at it...and the rest is history.

    Fast fast forward to 5.3 and Garleon is in riot mode due to the Emperor being killed and the rumors of the crown prince being a ascian which most likely havent died off. All their latest attempts have been for naught with the Ultimate weapon, to Black rose, to the Gem Weapons, to force. Loosing Doma and Ala Mihgo have rallied the islabard provinces to rise up like Dalmasca and Bozja. That with the palace being bathed in blood and they dont have the power to truly end anything too busy trying to reclaim and assert their dominance. Now its the time to strike in 5.4, they are running out of cards to play and soon the empire will collapse.
    (0)
    “Theirs really not much you can change with the MCH”
    -Live letter 66, 9/17/21

    Where is the ambition?

  8. #38
    Player
    Shadotterdan's Avatar
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    Nov 2014
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    Character
    Shalala Shala
    World
    Hyperion
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 90
    One thing I haven't seen addressed directly which I feel is something of a contributing factor is that the extent to which the empire can employ Magitek is highly dependant on their ceruleum resources. Without that, the best they can do in regards to magic is either relying on conscripts, which I would imagine they don't want to be too dependant on, or magicite crystals which I'm pretty sure is quite ineffecient. If they were able to gain a stronger foothold in Northern Thanalan things would likely turn around quite quickly.
    (4)

  9. #39
    Player
    Cilia's Avatar
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    Trpimir Ratyasch
    World
    Lamia
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Vyrerus View Post
    But to be serious uhh, those are some good points. I'd point out some stuff though.

    [...]

    Yay, an Ironman reference. Love that movie.
    5. Shock collars etc. would be an effective means of control, but it's suggested in the questline that those are only used on prisoners. Vitus quo Messalla (the GNB antagonist) just uses them as a way of keeping his forced conscripts in line. Besides which, for a small covert unit it's effective enough (ultimately fails Vitus though, so he kills all his conscripts before stepping up to the plate) but as a means of controlling an entire army? Doesn't sound like a wise idea (they'll just turn at the least opportune moment, e.g. in the heat of battle). (And I have GNB as my main class, and even broke my "No EX Trials" rule to get the dye-enabled coat...)

    6. The main point of it seems to have been as a test of Fordola's resolve and loyalty. Still, Zenos is stated to have been a master tactician in the Doman "half" of the story, and regardless of ultimate intent it was still a rather cunning (if heartlessly ruthless) move.

    10. Just knowing it's possible Zenos would probably have made the order. (Guy don't care about the lives of his soldiers; see Specula Imperatoris incident, mentioned above). I'd wager they don't destroy aetherytes because they don't think anyone who can use them would actually pose a threat if they did; really, not having regular patrols going through villages like Namai and Ala Gannha is just stupid and lazy of them. (Keep an eye out for saboteurs and win the hearts of the townsfolk by keeping them safe? Nope!)

    11. It's in a Lore Book or something. I don't have one myself, but I do remember seeing a scan or something stating Limsa's navy was better and that the Empire hadn't bothered with one because of how cold their home waters are. Regardless, they pretty much just skipped the sea part of military progression and went straight to sky, and could probably be better served with flying aircraft carriers (a la Helicarriers) instead of going with dreadnaught airships. I mean, if the things can stay aloft seemingly indefinitely (if the Gration is any indication), they could just station those over the seas instead. More defensible too, given nobody else has an effective air force. But they love their big shooty toys.

    The first Iron Man film is the best Marvel film because it's got a good, self-contained redemption story and isn't overly concerned on setting up future installments in the franchise.
    (3)
    Trpimir Ratyasch's Way Status (7.3 - End)
    [ ]LOST [ ]NOT LOST [X]TRAUNT!
    "There is no hope in stubbornly clinging to the past. It is our duty to face the future and march onward, not retreat inward." -Sovetsky Soyuz, Azur Lane: Snowrealm Peregrination

  10. #40
    Player
    Vyrerus's Avatar
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    The Interdimensional Rift
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    Vicious Zvahl
    World
    Excalibur
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    Machinist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Cilia View Post
    5. Shock collars etc.
    5. They only failed though cause Radovan got the most recent ex-Garlean scientist to reverse engineer him a do-hickey that let him shock the Alacran. I guess I forgot the prisoner portion of the bit, but a failsafe in the power armor wouldn't be too far out of the question. If not a shock color, maybe self detonation triggered either voluntarily by the wearer or by a superior. Of course, with the traitors in the midst, it'd need like a Predator style password thing that you could change in order to enact it or something I guess? I still say they could get power suits on troops! Also grats on your Gunbreaker coat. :O I managed to get that fight done enough to get the full MCH and SAM set, and then bits and pieces of others. Lost patience with PUGing it beyond that though, but a dyeable GNB coat would be pretty nice...

    6. Yeah, I suppose. But I mean, is he really? :<

    10. That's my point. Would he have known such a thing was possible, and if he did know, why and how did he know?

    11. Maybe I should get a lore book someday. All these interesting nuggets. Helicarriers would be a good idea, but I'm not sure if the Gration is floating on its own or if it's like... magnetically induced into levitating there or something?

    I agree with that assessment.
    (0)

    (Signature portrait by Amaipetisu)

    "I thought that my invincible power would hold the world captive, leaving me in a freedom undisturbed. Thus night and day I worked at the chain with huge fires and cruel hard strokes. When at last the work was done and the links were complete and unbreakable, I found that it held me in its grip." - Rabindranath Tagore

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