"Revamp/Rework" obsession

[Cetek14]

I just want to say that imo we don't need jobs reworks so often. Some jobs were changed a lot instead of adjusted, turning them into something inferior (DRK). Some jobs are changed from one abomination to another each expansion. And for example PLD and RDM are peak job design, and probably 6.0 changes will ruin them, because it will introduce forced changes.

[ADVSS]

I just want to say that imo we don't need jobs reworks so often. Some jobs were changed a lot instead of adjusted, turning them into something inferior (DRK). Some jobs are changed from one abomination to another each expansion. And for example PLD and RDM are peak job design, and probably 6.0 changes will ruin them, because it will introduce forced changes.

I cant agree with you more on this one.Something like 3.0 BRD, yeah, But I kind of fear, like you do that a job like rdm/pld will get the chopping block very soon, even if they are reliable and thematically well done.

[Shougun]

I cant agree with you more on this one.Something like 3.0 BRD, yeah, But I kind of fear, like you do that a job like rdm/pld will get the chopping block very soon, even if they are reliable and thematically well done.

Not saying I can't be wrong but I don't imagine they will purposefully do anything to Paladin or Red Mage to 'greatly' change it, in terms of it's core DNA. Of course they'll add something new but I don't imagine that's going to be a MCH redesign to a job that is already well received.

Say unlike before a lot of people were complaining about healers not healing enough and so they did some changes (I believe due to that), but of course those changes just made different issues lol.

Also would agree that Paladin feels quite nice, it's my favorite job. I wouldn't mind some more big boom spells since I feel that gives it a holy tank (actual tank, not the generic mmo term) / holy juggernaut vibe, which is quite fun, and perhaps a shield skill (shield bash maybe getting some love, since we've low blow already) or a way to use clemency without it being such a harsh punishment to our damage, but still a job I quite very much like. I also have a dream that Paladin may one day get the lightning spear kind of attack from Dark Souls (what one of the knights uses in HW to kill our bro, but holy looking instead).

[ADVSS]

Not saying I can't be wrong but I don't imagine they will purposefully do anything to Paladin or Red Mage to 'greatly' change it, in terms of it's core DNA. Of course they'll add something new but I don't imagine that's going to be a MCH redesign to a job that is already well received.

Say unlike before a lot of people were complaining about healers not healing enough and so they did some changes (I believe due to that), but of course those changes just made different issues lol.

I wish I could be as optimistic as you sometimes, but I've seen a whole lot of "adjustments" since 2.0 launch. I really do believe that they will just unnecessarily chop jobs up to make others in the role feel more safe at night having a "slice of that", Thats usually all we see every expansion. Sometimes they take it too far, and have to do a MCH or a 4.0 reversion like BRD. I hope that MNK will get the proper attention it deserves in 5.4

[Shougun]

I wish I could be as optimistic as you sometimes, but I've seen a whole lot of "adjustments" since 2.0 launch. I really do believe that they will just unnecessarily chop jobs up to make others in the role feel more safe at night having a "slice of that", Thats usually all we see every expansion. Sometimes they take it too far, and have to do a MCH or a 4.0 reversion like BRD. I hope that MNK will get the proper attention it deserves in 5.4

I can usually see what feedback lead to a change, or at least feel lines could be drawn, so in that way I feel a bit optimistic I guess. There are moments where it does appear SE put cotton in their ears, but I don't feel that's the standard. Call me out on it if the next expansion doesn't do something for healer's, I feel they'll try to address it then.

Part of the issue is it appears they plan long in advance so any changes require sneaking it in very slowly overtime or huge effort to detour the train. So if you think of your feedback having like a six month /minimum/ turn around you might see stuff connect more. Also it might come in a slightly different shapes than expected.

I am also interested to see what happens to monk, I am curious how much of the DNA will be preserved while they make the GL easier to manage.

Didn't say anything really important but also wanted to add I did edit my other post a little after you quoted (added some lines about PLD) .

[ADVSS]

I can usually see what feedback lead to a change, or at least feel lines could be drawn, so in that way I feel a bit optimistic I guess. There are moments where it does appear SE put cotton in their ears, but I don't feel that's the standard. Call me out on it if the next expansion doesn't do something for healer's, I feel they'll try to address it then.

Part of the issue is it appears they plan long in advance so any changes require sneaking it in very slowly overtime or huge effort to detour the train. So if you think of your feedback having like a six month /minimum/ turn around you might see stuff connect more. Also it might come in a slightly different shapes than expected.

I am also interested to see what happens to monk, I am curious how much of the DNA will be preserved while they make the GL easier to manage.

Didn't say anything really important but also wanted to add I did edit my other post a little after you quoted (added some lines about PLD) .

Oh yeah sunlight spear faith build(\o/ praise the sunbro), one of my favs in OG Dark Souls for sure. I think PLD is pretty good, a little bit of crazy on the holy attack magic spamming though(not accurate to FF PLD at all btw). After their current kit i cannot think of anything they could give PLD like literally. Anything thematic(and FF historically accurate) would really just cause people to have a surprised pikachu face. Like literally all thats left is a raise and esuna like ability. I reallly really have a hard time believing they will actually have the balls to do that with how at least what i think the majority of tanks here feel they base their balance on with the tanks and kind of predicting within the framework of what they seem content as "balanced" amongst the tanks right now. Color me surprised if they do though. I feel more like they are working to get rid of self healing on tanks. This would be an interesting job reveal if they did this.

[Shougun]

Oh yeah sunlight spear faith build(\o/ praise the sunbro), one of my favs in OG Dark Souls for sure. I think PLD is pretty good, a little bit of crazy on the holy attack magic spamming though(not accurate to FF PLD at all btw). After their current kit i cannot think of anything they could give PLD like literally. Anything thematic(and FF historically accurate) would really just cause people to have a surprised pikachu face. Like literally all thats left is a raise and esuna like ability. I reallly really have a hard time believing they will actually have the balls to do that with how at least what i think the majority of tanks here feel they base their balance on with the tanks and kind of predicting within the framework of what they seem content as "balanced" amongst the tanks right now. Color me surprised if they do though. I feel more like they are working to get rid of self healing on tanks. This would be an interesting job reveal if they did this.

\o/

Praise the sun! I knew we had a connection, must be we are sunbros lol. I did a lot of gold (yellow) and blue phantom work, I tried red phantom content but I felt guilty XD. Less guilty with the gray / rat covenant though, something funny about watching people run around your maze .

Certainly not quote the most stereotypical FF Paladin to wield so much magic offensive magic as a core part of their identity, but I think it's still cool lol. I am okay with that, since I find they're diverging a little in the grand / strong way (if you diverge and make it look worse that's not great ).

I could see them giving esuna without too much of a balance issue, well an esuna like ability. For raise the only thing I think that could make it work is say if the raise ability shared a cooldown with your hallowed ground, I think that would make it balanced since in effect you only ever use HG to live through the unlive-able. So like Paladin might be able to raise someone with a temporary full life shield and like half mana, but it consumes their HG (which is a pretty big deal).

For Paladin, since we kind of mentioned it already I thought of some random ideas (I didn't put too much effort into thinking of balance, though I made notes here and there about permutations and or ideal balance, definitely more of fire starter / spark kit then something you'd copy 100%, but that's how I generally think.. since I don't almost ever put potency numbers into ideas as I assume it's better to think SE might get an inspiration over want to copy something exactly. Not knocking those who go to that effort though, I just assume they'll only use the 'concept' / vague 'theme', if anything of course, so that's what I focus on)-

Shield Toss upgrade that turns shield toss into Blessed Lance, casting time ability. When interrupted it'll launch a small spear of holy energy that deals a little more damage than the shield toss would have, has a greater range than shield toss, doesn't trigger cooldown (so if you were moving it would launch out exactly like shield toss used to, but look cooler and just generally be a bit more effective / easier to use). If you full cast it it'll deal more damage in an aoe with substantial enmity (and gives you the full drawing back and tossing like Zeus imagery animation, bigger bolt of energy of course), 10+ second cooldown- during this time you can still use the small lance (button still interactable) but you can't long cast it (going back to the general shield toss vibes, of course slightly upgraded). For a short time after a full cast of Blessed Lance you can cast Divine Descent or Divine Ascent (that's not two abilities, just different name options for the same ability lol), an ability that replaces intervene (paladin's movement ability, doesn't share cooldowns, can only be cast once and then turns back to intervene). Divine Descent will cause the Paladin to 'disapparate' like Noctis (into energy) and then reappear at the target either sword in ground super hero landing style or sword raised high to the sky, where a holy nova will explode, has further range than normal intervene (extra points if it gives the sense of impact from above). Damage to be balanced such that you don't hard cast in your single target rotation, but Requiescat will allow you to use it without casting time which would make the damage worth more than a single holy spirit (and then go on 'cooldown'), meanwhile the other time you would use it is either the start of a long pull (charge up, throw spear, then mega slam down on their face and begin the train) or during your aoe rotations (as both the lance and the descent would cause AoE damage). Both abilities not requiring new buttons, since Paladin already has loads of buttons lol, and both skills break up the rotation a little (one less holy spirit, a little bit more action in the magic phase, and your AoE rotation both physical and magical get a bit of a new thing to do).

Since we talked about raise, might see Angel's Grace (yes, meant to sound like Angel Whisper lol) - which shares cooldown with Hallowed Ground. Raises the target instantly with 100% of Paladin's max hp as a shield (lasts 5-10 seconds) and 100% mp shield (lasts 5-10 seconds as well, mp shield acts just like hp shields do.. but for mp, so they can use it or lose it lol). May make the hp and mp fade, so then 10 seconds would make more sense and certainly feel like grace was leaving you lol (say 10% a second the shield mp and hp degrade).

For Esuna might suggest Keepsake (don't love the name, but can't think of something better at this second- maybe someone can come with a better name lol), costs 25 oath, acts like Warden's Paeon but has no timer and Paladin may only give one out at a time. Also has a cooldown (that begins on cast completed, not when consumed). May cast keepsake on a covered target for free (cooldown will trigger of course).

Another idea someone else suggested to break up the spam of holy spirit in the Requiescat rotation was that clemency would increase the potency of the next holy spell during the buff window, which could be a nice way to occasionally be able to use clemency without it being naughty (currently a pure dps loss lol).

Because I love Confiteor and would like to see concepts like that, also thought of a Judgement spell that works on a huge rotation and continues to give Paladin that sort of graceful juggernaut tank. Like Hallowed Ground is on a big cooldown, Paladin has some big tools but they tend to have a cycle of a niche use. Judgement would come around like Hallowed Ground but be like Confiteor in that it smacks them right up side the head pretty hard. You could bind this to a few mechanics, like atonement or a new clemency mechanic that means you use it sometimes but not too much. But the basic imagery I have in mind is Paladin's shield in the air behind themselves a little, opening up a portal and then the most aggressive holy thor yamato cannon beam comes out and flattens your target (almost like an Ahk Morn, but this would come from an angle behind you, from a sort of portal / summoning rune symbol emanating with your shield, and I think might look better if it was one large beam with equidistant beams outside the main beam that were smaller and merging into the main beam, like it was being fed from smaller sources, while it was all rotating lol). Paladin not held in position the entire time, so there will be a few moments where your shield is melting the ground with heaven's wraith (sort of speak) while you're running around doing your own thing. To be more than just big damage there could be a series of sort of pulse waves that washes over a large area from the target (3-4), leaving a sort of glittering faint dust cloud, giving allies a stacking purified effect (heals the person for each action they take, first few pulses healing only a tiny bit but the last few before the stacks fall off would be not that bad- wont replace a healer but if you've a full party of 8 and everyone gets hit by the purification then that's a good deal in terms of total hp healed).

Would like to see Passage of Arms get some cute interaction, I do like the skill so not a complaint just thinking more toy room. Like while active a few of your skills will replace like dancer's dance steps, where you can use your combos to grow the size of the wings and another to change the wing shape to a dome (big wings coming from you that encircle the area around you). If they're feeling crazy they can let you do attacks from this state (again could use the dancer concept, like Phoenix replaces your ruin on SMN - so for Passage of Arms it might be like holy transparent looking feather slashes to anything within reach). Just think having a few things to do would be fun (even if it's simply making the area of effect larger). Not saying SE had to see the idea to get it but long ago, before this skill, I had suggested a winged move for paladin that would protect your allies while you took position, and one of the concepts was if you used tempered will anyone in the area would gain that effect (so they wouldn't be affected by knockbacks).

I also think Shield Bash could get something, since right now with low blow shield bash is now basically the skill that you use to ruin your combos and to cheese stun lock. Perhaps now Shield Bash applies disorient for a few seconds (useless on bosses but will slow the target greatly) and grants 10 shield oath, is oGCD, and for the next 10 seconds the skill will be replaced with Radiant Armament (light erupts from your shield in a cone) which inflicts a stun much like it used to but with no damage (each flash costs 5 shield oath). Goes on cooldown, whether you used the stun mechanic or not.

For Fight or Flight I think the skill could get an upgrade, since it currently fits gladiator well but for Paladin it's like "no run, only fight- I am first in and last out" lol. The name change could be simple though, like Fight and Flight, causing Paladin to gain increased movement speed and a sort of sticky rush attack to all their physical moves (if there is distance from the target such that you can't use your attack it'll put you in range and use your attack then, like each attack has a very short range dash baked into it). You might then think of Divine Descent from above and change it so during Flight and Fight your blessed lance is instantly cast or even buffed (or simply remove the association and so blessed lance sticks to the magic phase and divine descent is with the physical side, that would also be fine), since it's called and flight it would naturally make sense divine descent has some relationship to the skill. As well as the new name maybe adding a little bit of particle effects to your sword moves (not aggressive effects- doesn't need to be gaudy, but enough that you look enhanced). Also during Fight and Flight if you hovered slightly off the ground (doesn't need wings, since WHM already has that sort of thing- just kind of hovering in graceful yet slightly intimidating position), that'd be epic .