Elemental Spell Reform

[Chardrizard]

Only thing I really miss is the Stun spell.

As an added effect to Thundara, it's a waste (would you use Thundara out of combo for Stun with 30s recast instead of 15s when cast in combo ?).

Yes. There are times when stun was needed.

[rwyan]

I've been playing off and on since release. THM is my main and since my return, I'm a bit conflicted about the state of the armory/class/job system as a whole - especially the THM.

Things I don't like -
1. The dark and light theme of the previous incarnation
2. The variety of spells and cross class abilities
3. All those modify buffs (turn next cast into hp drain, increase crit rate until you crit, etc...)

Things I like -
1. Overall, combat has a better flow to it
2. Spells and their effects are reliable, or at least more so than before the revamp

Some general thoughts:
Previously, THMs commanded umbral and astral based spells. Umbral being comprised of earth, water, and ice. Astral being comprised of lightning, wind and fire. Now, we're masters of lightning, fire and ice and conjurers being masters of earth, wind and water (apparently, cure is water based). So now, conceptually, we have a bit of an identity crisis as we don't master the umbral half or the astral half but 2/3 of the umbral half and 1/3 of the astral half. However, according to what I've read here, the current state of CON and THM are more reflective of the BLM and WHM jobs of older FF games - which I'm perfectly fine with and I hope they resolve the lore come 2.0

Functionally, I don't have many qualms with the class. Like I mentioned, combat has a better flow to it. If anything, my biggest peeve are all these buffs that modify the next cast. It's almost like I have just as many of those as I do spells. My other gripe has more to do with the armory system and job systems. There needs to be more variety in cross-class abilities, and why are jobs 1 to 1? Why wasn't it designed such that Lancers and Marauders could be Paladins. Or, why can't all the DoW be Warriors?

[Jinrya-Geki]

I've been playing off and on since release. THM is my main and since my return, I'm a bit conflicted about the state of the armory/class/job system as a whole - especially the THM.

Things I don't like -
1. The dark and light theme of the previous incarnation
2. The variety of spells and cross class abilities
3. All those modify buffs (turn next cast into hp drain, increase crit rate until you crit, etc...)

Things I like -
1. Overall, combat has a better flow to it
2. Spells and their effects are reliable, or at least more so than before the revamp

Some general thoughts:
Previously, THMs commanded umbral and astral based spells. Umbral being comprised of earth, water, and ice. Astral being comprised of lightning, wind and fire. Now, we're masters of lightning, fire and ice and conjurers being masters of earth, wind and water (apparently, cure is water based). So now, conceptually, we have a bit of an identity crisis as we don't master the umbral half or the astral half but 2/3 of the umbral half and 1/3 of the astral half. However, according to what I've read here, the current state of CON and THM are more reflective of the BLM and WHM jobs of older FF games - which I'm perfectly fine with and I hope they resolve the lore come 2.0

Functionally, I don't have many qualms with the class. Like I mentioned, combat has a better flow to it. If anything, my biggest peeve are all these buffs that modify the next cast. It's almost like I have just as many of those as I do spells. My other gripe has more to do with the armory system and job systems. There needs to be more variety in cross-class abilities, and why are jobs 1 to 1? Why wasn't it designed such that Lancers and Marauders could be Paladins. Or, why can't all the DoW be Warriors?

I disagree. Neither one is a master of either. Black mage/Thaumaturge main spells is the lightning combo, and it's really only Thunder and thundara. Conjurer/ White Mage is situational like moogle fight with the first stage. Masters would be good at every spell they have, this game makes most spells god damn unusable. Lolice and where is water? Fire being aoe only, it's dumb I am sorry, I want the AOE toggle system back. And it lacks the oomph that thundara has when comboed.

Sleepga is awesome the first time, that's it. The second time you might as well not even bother, because it comes off so quickly. This should be an example to how other enfeebles that might come out again, like paralyze. That spell will be useless in no time flat after it's first use on a mob. The enfeeble spells have been made useless by making mobs resist it after each use. Oh course they didn't say how long it would take for the timer to reset so the spell is fully useful. You know how many people would ask for another change if they announced that. And people will hardly notice because everything is becoming a zergfest again. Look at Princess in CC.

What needs to be done is Disciple of Magic needs to have this:
15 ability cap removed.
Bring back toggle aoes for just Thaumturge/Black Mage spells.
Black mage only, gets all elemental spells and all tiers.
White Mage/Conjurer keeps or remove aero/stone, but get Scourge/Banish again combos.

This way black mage is useful in all situation, Conjurer/White Mage still has a damage output.

[Enfarious]

Jinrya-Geki you said it.
I think AoE toggles for every spell though, not just thm/blm

All teir elemental spells should have the same dmg base by tier, making water as useful as fire as useful as thunder. Of course using them against weak/resistant mobs would affect this, as would your [element] attributes and [element] attack magic bonuses.

That resistance building thing is a little extreme, I'm not a magey type but what I've seen if your first cast gets partially resisted your simply fk'd, I get why they have it ramping up, it's just a little too much too soon.

Cnj/Whm imo needs to go back to what the majority of the series has had as WHM banish/holy/cure and other Light based stuff.

A final thought, on the number of abilities, magic users have always and should always have more spells than melees have abilities, this makes sense considering that in most instances a mage will only have 2~3 spells that are actually useful in a fight while a melee will be able to use all abilities every fight. But if to keep it simple enough for 6 year olds to play they want to keep the minimum ability count they've got going now, then just drop all the tiers and have spell dmg scale w/ level, you get 1 direct dmg attack spell of each element, 1 DoT spell of each element, and have 3 slots left over for other abilities.
Edit: of course this level of reform would prolly not be feasible at this point in things.

[Jinrya-Geki]

Most likely not, most black mages seem to be fine with what they got. I think it's unacceptable.

[Enfarious]

Something says they're fine with it for the same reason that people are fine with WAR as it is. They don't want it getting nerfed down to what other jobs are capable of. If SE starts looking too deeply at THM/BLM it might occur to them that 400 DPS from cycling thunder and casting ABSOLUTELY nothing else during a fight is a little broken. Of course they might scale back that damage output and noone really wants that.

[Klive]

Spells maybe simple and only have have a hand full of them, but people still have no idea on how to use them.

First, if you are only spam thunder > thundra, with thundaga when your mana and crit buffs are up; you are not playing your BLM/THM to its fullest. That what I do when I'm low of mana and trying to get some back.

Most people don't even try to use the debuff effects of their spells. Aerora dispels enemy buffs, too many CNJs don't know it can. Blizzara binds enemies and is a fantastic crowd control to use; alternate it with sleep to keep enemies under control longer. Yet, I see BLM/THM die to stuff because they don't think to bind things and walk away... all the time. I see people flare monster then wonder why they can't sleep it. I could go on.

Spell lists maybe limited, but people still have little idea on how to use them. Honestly, I fail to see how having a huge spell list of spells, that I won't use,will improve my spell casting experience. It will be like other MMOs that had giant spell lists, I had the best on my bar, the rest collected dust.

To each their own though.

[KoujiGeki]

ok everyone try to imagine this. Lets say they add Dark Knight to the game and to make it DD on par with drg and war they take War steel cyclone away and rampage and gave Drk Spinning slash and a blood weapon that isnt a 15. and Drg they take away Life surge and dreadspike. and gave them to drk also. All the Wars and Drg would god damn have aneurisms and rage quit. That EXACTLY what they did to Blm/Thm they took their spells away. in every other single game IMAGINABLE Black mage, sorceror, wizard,mage,sage,warlock has had every elemental spell in some shape or form. BLM/Thm should be useful in every magic based situation. What will Blms do when they add a fight that Thunder or fire is useless? use lolblizzard? well then they can cast Bio.... oh wait.....Elemental Dots...oh wait....... Sleepga........oh wait they are resisting now.... Blm/thm should have all the Offensive Elemental Spells.

[Skies]

My other gripe has more to do with the armory system and job systems. There needs to be more variety in cross-class abilities, and why are jobs 1 to 1? Why wasn't it designed such that Lancers and Marauders could be Paladins. Or, why can't all the DoW be Warriors?

Actually, the Job system is, at this very moment, incomplete. They are planning for there being multiple jobs per class in the future and, I think perhaps, jobs with multiple classes. You can consider the whole Job system as it is now a 'preview' of the future one.

[NoloeTazier]

I disagree. Neither one is a master of either. Black mage/Thaumaturge main spells is the lightning combo, and it's really only Thunder and thundara. Conjurer/ White Mage is situational like moogle fight with the first stage. Masters would be good at every spell they have, this game makes most spells god damn unusable. Lolice and where is water? Fire being aoe only, it's dumb I am sorry, I want the AOE toggle system back. And it lacks the oomph that thundara has when comboed.

Sleepga is awesome the first time, that's it. The second time you might as well not even bother, because it comes off so quickly. This should be an example to how other enfeebles that might come out again, like paralyze. That spell will be useless in no time flat after it's first use on a mob. The enfeeble spells have been made useless by making mobs resist it after each use. Oh course they didn't say how long it would take for the timer to reset so the spell is fully useful. You know how many people would ask for another change if they announced that. And people will hardly notice because everything is becoming a zergfest again. Look at Princess in CC.

What needs to be done is Disciple of Magic needs to have this:
15 ability cap removed.
Bring back toggle aoes for just Thaumturge/Black Mage spells.
Black mage only, gets all elemental spells and all tiers.
White Mage/Conjurer keeps or remove aero/stone, but get Scourge/Banish again combos.

This way black mage is useful in all situation, Conjurer/White Mage still has a damage output.

Jinrya-Geki you said it.
I think AoE toggles for every spell though, not just thm/blm

All teir elemental spells should have the same dmg base by tier, making water as useful as fire as useful as thunder. Of course using them against weak/resistant mobs would affect this, as would your [element] attributes and [element] attack magic bonuses.

That resistance building thing is a little extreme, I'm not a magey type but what I've seen if your first cast gets partially resisted your simply fk'd, I get why they have it ramping up, it's just a little too much too soon.

Cnj/Whm imo needs to go back to what the majority of the series has had as WHM banish/holy/cure and other Light based stuff.

A final thought, on the number of abilities, magic users have always and should always have more spells than melees have abilities, this makes sense considering that in most instances a mage will only have 2~3 spells that are actually useful in a fight while a melee will be able to use all abilities every fight. But if to keep it simple enough for 6 year olds to play they want to keep the minimum ability count they've got going now, then just drop all the tiers and have spell dmg scale w/ level, you get 1 direct dmg attack spell of each element, 1 DoT spell of each element, and have 3 slots left over for other abilities.
Edit: of course this level of reform would prolly not be feasible at this point in things.

Most likely not, most black mages seem to be fine with what they got. I think it's unacceptable.

10000000000^69% agreed with these. Tiered Spells please. I'm one of those people who wants 500 spells even if only like 20 of them are any "good." We don't necessarily need /aoe toggle when the -ara and -aga spells could be our AOE spells. I do like the idea of giving WHM the Banish line again. Could have a Magic Defense Down affect.

Mages combos could go back to the Magic Burst combos, pulling off a spell right after a melee's combos. It might make people pay attention to the battles more, waiting to cast that spell for a combo instead of just watching TV and hitting Thunder -> Thundara over and over. Not saying its the best idea but hey I just woke up and its all I could think of right now.

Yeah if Red Mage is created as the Enfeeble class it will be really hard with the current resist system. But hey that's probably not till 2.0 so we can wait till then to complain about never being able to land a 2nd Paralyze in a long boss battle.