Elemental Spell Reform

[Jinrya-Geki]

So your going to quit because the Devs are not bowing down to you and kissing your feet? Since you're a Lalafell it might be a little difficult, especially if one of them are a Roegadyn, he'll have to lay on his stomach, and he'd be able to fit your entire leg into his mouth.

If that's your attitude, then quit. Whether the change it or not, doesn't matter, it's a game, it can be justified in many ways, and it's the content that's important relative to the set up.

I am not happy following a carrot on a stick. Being told to wait till 2.0 to find out. I'd rather know now than waste more time playing a game that won't improve in on the few aspects that I want to enjoy.

I don't understand how anyone who enjoys being a DD caster can be satisfied with what we have now. It's unacceptable. People are amazed by how much damage black mage can do. Yeah it's true it's high, but look at the big picture. We are fighting mobs that don't have a large defense against thunder. What happens when you through a lightning mob at black mages? Fire line is too mp consuming to be nearly as effective as Thunder line. Lolice is lol. I would like something alternative to use than thunder and be just as effective. Maybe I don't want to cast thunder all the time, maybe I want to hit the mob weak to fire and just hit that one damn target, and not get agroed by everything around it. Or cast an awesome damage avalanche size ice spell that wrecks something rather than does a useless enfeeble effect.

Those ancient magics spells are crap.

Enfeebles god damn worthless.

Gear is shitty cause it's mixed with healing/damage dealing. It should be split, not the god damn elemental wheel.

I don't want to be overpowered. I just want balance. When the spells actually matter, they don't. I want something to look forward to.

Seeing threads get developer posts like "Make Night time more scary"... seriously... that's more important than potential future of the Disciples of Magic?

[Skies]

There's a simple solution to your woe of 'what if I face an R: Thunder enemy' question. Turn off your Black Mage Job, and equip Stone/Stonera and Aero/Aerora.

Yep, suboptimal. Indeed, from what I can see, working as intended.

I have to say I personally find it very unfun for every single spell to be just a different-element carbon-copy of another and I like the way that the devs are going with the distribution of spells.

So why don't you try to find solutions more along the lines of what the devs are working with? You want all elements on one character? Alright, let's call that the Elementalist Job for Thaumaturge in 2.0, so we don't have to alter THM at it's base. You know we got ST damage on Thunder, AoE on Fire and Instant-cast Bind on Ice. Give me ideas for Wind, Earth and Water that are neither Single Target damage, AoE damage or Instant-cast Bind.

Edit: Also yes, making nighttime scarier is more important than giving more elements to Thaumaturge. Not nearly as important as a third DoM, however.

[Jinrya-Geki]

There's a simple solution to your woe of 'what if I face an R: Thunder enemy' question. Turn off your Black Mage Job, and equip Stone/Stonera and Aero/Aerora.

Yep, suboptimal. Indeed, from what I can see, working as intended.

I have to say I personally find it very unfun for every single spell to be just a different-element carbon-copy of another and I like the way that the devs are going with the distribution of spells.

So why don't you try to find solutions more along the lines of what the devs are working with? You want all elements on one character? Alright, let's call that the Elementalist Job for Thaumaturge in 2.0, so we don't have to alter THM at it's base. You know we got ST damage on Thunder, AoE on Fire and Instant-cast Bind on Ice. Give me ideas for Wind, Earth and Water that are neither Single Target damage, AoE damage or Instant-cast Bind.

Edit: Also yes, making nighttime scarier is more important than giving more elements to Thaumaturge. Not nearly as important as a third DoM, however.

You should double check your spells. Stonra/Aerora are Conjury only. So using Stone and Aero by themselves is completely useless. Their enfeebles are just as useless since they don't last long and they won't after the first use.

Any spell, any ability is a copy of another that point is dumb. Stoneskin is just a more effective limited form of protect, attack spells are just over-glorified ranged attacks with visual effects. Damage is damage, buffs are buffs, enfeebles are enfeebles.

A better solution: I have stated it quite a few times already.

Black Mage only: All elemental spells that act like Conjurers Combo lines. The first spell is always single target. When comboed the second spell is converted to single target as well but is also enhanced by Intelligence to do more damage. Using any Tier II spell or higher should be AoE. Drop the god damn worthless enfeeble spells of the spells cause they are worthless with this enfeeble system.

Change Flare to Firaja, Freeze to Blizzaja, and Burst to Thundaja. They aren't ancient magic spells. They are just lesser versions of the other spells. Ancient Magic spells like Flare and etc have always been pure damaging spells not dumb enfeebles.

Save enfeebles for Red Mage only. Why does Cjn get DD spells, enfeebles and heals? That'll just make White and Red mage similar to what Thm/Cjn was in the beginning of the games release.

Holy should do amazing damage for all MP. And Cjn should get a combo line of Scrourge/Banish.

Black Mage becomes alot better than Thm for party play, and Cjn/whm can still DD, everyone's happy. Simple solution.

I said give the elements to Black Mage only, not Thaumaturge. You should be getting more variety from spells against more mobs for giving up your survivability. Cjn/Whm doesn't lose much survivability compared to Black Mage.

[Vaymathias]

You should double check your spells. Stonra/Aerora are Conjury only. So using Stone and Aero by themselves is completely useless. Their enfeebles are just as useless since they don't last long and they won't after the first use.

Any spell, any ability is a copy of another that point is dumb. Stoneskin is just a more effective limited form of protect, attack spells are just over-glorified ranged attacks with visual effects. Damage is damage, buffs are buffs, enfeebles are enfeebles.

A better solution: I have stated it quite a few times already.

Two, points I agree with.

Black Mage only: All elemental spells that act like Conjurers Combo lines. The first spell is always single target. When comboed the second spell is converted to single target as well but is also enhanced by Intelligence to do more damage. Using any Tier II spell or higher should be AoE. Drop the god damn worthless enfeeble spells of the spells cause they are worthless with this enfeeble system.

Change Flare to Firaja, Freeze to Blizzaja, and Burst to Thundaja. They aren't ancient magic spells. They are just lesser versions of the other spells. Ancient Magic spells like Flare and etc have always been pure damaging spells not dumb enfeebles.

I think they're pretty tightly married to the 15+10 abilities for class and 15+5+5 abilities for jobs. Knowing that, why don't you theory craft how you would set up Thm/blm ability list? At least it's not just ranting with an idea here and there, put it all in one package.

[elreed]

i agree with the op. white mage and conjurer should have a different type of damage spells, like light spells, light-light2-holy or scourge1 2 and 3, it should be felt different than black mage, and thm is OP. against black mage in survival, so the fair thing to do is give em less spells and combos so if you want the mage dd role you have to be BLM, and yes BLM should and must have all elemental spells at their disposal, so in the future when more primals appear they might have the correct combo at their disposal to do damage to any primal....

[Enfarious]

So your going to quit because the Devs are not bowing down to you and kissing your feet? Since you're a Lalafell it might be a little difficult, especially if one of them are a Roegadyn, he'll have to lay on his stomach, and he'd be able to fit your entire leg into his mouth.

If that's your attitude, then quit. Whether the change it or not, doesn't matter, it's a game, it can be justified in many ways, and it's the content that's important relative to the set up.

This is a very "Which came first the chicken or the egg." argument, content should be tailored around jobs, jobs should be tailored around content ...
Noone is likely to find a winning side, but leaving us with so few options is pretty bleh, not just on magey jobs, on all of them, spamming the same 5~6 abils and occasionally(90+ seconds only worth using in specific fights) peppering in another 4~5 is really not great class/job design, it's good for people that can't figure out how to macro or change action bars, but this whole "We're working in the 30 total ability for the life of the game limit" leads to a bit of wtf.

Two, points I agree with.



I think they're pretty tightly married to the 15+10 abilities for class and 15+5+5 abilities for jobs. Knowing that, why don't you theory craft how you would set up Thm/blm ability list? At least it's not just ranting with an idea here and there, put it all in one package.

Isn't this kind of the problem, some jobs got crazy gimped by the stripping of abils from them, while others came away relatively unscathed and still others came away OPd. Having so few abils in a RPG of any kind just seems wrong as hell maybe it's just cause I grew up on FFs and they all have hundreds of different abils/spells to work with.

[Vaymathias]

This is a very "Which came first the chicken or the egg." argument, content should be tailored around jobs, jobs should be tailored around content ...

Your missing my point. The content of the game was made for a different version of THM/BLM. One that has access to all of the elements. The current incarnation of THM/BLM doesn't, so the content should take that into consideration. It's a small consideration too, knowing that it's fire/lightning/ice, tailoring enemy strengths/weaknesses/absorbs/special reactions to those three is small, and in any game considerations like that are made.

If you want THM/BLM to be weak to a specific enemy, make that enemy have no elemental weakness, neutral to all or certain elements with high magic defense, or some special effect like absorbs x element(s).

It's similar for when you want THM/BLM to be the optimum choice.

Possibly even have multi-tiered enemies, for example, a mechanical based enemy that absorbs lightning, resistant to ice, but Fire melts it's outer shell. The for the second tier, it could be something like lightning now overcharges the enemy healing it initially, but causes MASSIVE damage down the line, or in the spirit of co-operation, once the armor is melted it's physical defense is drastically reduced.

Aspects like this are more tactical related. It's not as simple as the wheel, is not really complex, but requires knowledge of specific enemies (I'm also hoping for an in game encyclopedia that reveals this information, but that's another issue).

Noone is likely to find a winning side, but leaving us with so few options is pretty bleh, not just on magey jobs, on all of them, spamming the same 5~6 abils and occasionally(90+ seconds only worth using in specific fights) peppering in another 4~5 is really not great class/job design, it's good for people that can't figure out how to macro or change action bars, but this whole "We're working in the 30 total ability for the life of the game limit" leads to a bit of wtf.

I'm torn on this myself. While it's not so limiting for the melees, since they could use the positioning system more, and the chaining system more, like have a weapon skill that changes effects based on the weapon skill used just before it, it's very limiting on the mages. No enfeebling only spells, limited versions of an element (fire, fira, firaga).

For melees, it's the first time I've seen so many different weapon skills being used. Most games it's X, Y, and Z after you've unlocked them, and ignoring A through W. At least with the chain system most of them are being used, even if it is only in a chain.

But at the same time, I like the limit. Having all of your abilities at your disposal all the time is great.

But like I said, if they insist to sticking with the current ability limit, ya have to work with it. Just screaming that the whole system is garbage while others like it, then the discussion will no where.

Isn't this kind of the problem, some jobs got crazy gimped by the stripping of abils from them, while others came away relatively unscathed and still others came away OPd. Having so few abils in a RPG of any kind just seems wrong as hell maybe it's just cause I grew up on FFs and they all have hundreds of different abils/spells to work with.

Obviously if each class/job has the same number of skills, and yet one of them is overpowered, then it's due to the specifics of those abilities or of the class/job, not PLD is gimp because it NEEDS 2 more abilities than war.

I wouldn't say hundreds, a lot yes, maybe a couple, or a few dozen.

Just for point of reference on earlier BLM's....

Final Fantasy I Black Mage
No wind or water. Quake is there, but is an instant kill attack. Fire, Blizzard, and Thunder are all tiered.

Final Fantasy III Black Mage
On it's spell list, there's no wind or water elements. There is Quake, though the only multi tiered elements are Fire, Blizzard, and Thunder.

FF IV Rydia
She has Quake, AND Tornado, but still not tiered. Also, Quake is non-elemental damage and Tornado isn't a normal damage dealing spell. And Tiers of Fire/Blizzard/Thunder are present.

FF IV Palom
Same as Rydia.

Final Fantasy IV: The After Years Black Mage
Only Fire, Blizzard, and Ice.

Final Fantasy V Black Mage
Again, no wind or water. Strange that Quake is missing, and Fire, Blizzard and Thunder are all tiered.

Balance for those jobs weren't so much of an issue, since it was a single player game and they were all player controlled, but they were still balanced pretty well with a few exceptions. How is it that this set up worked? They took the Black Mage spells into account when developing/balancing the content.

[Jinrya-Geki]

The examples of other black mages from other games.

All their spells did damage. They had their own enfeebles as well. They were separated and were useful.

This game mixed both and we have horrible results.

Edit: And the Replay music box thread gets a crown... awesome.

[Duuude007]

Tornado was also used by black mages in a couple previous titles, but it did not deal direct damage. Rather, it made everyone's remaining HP exactly 1.

[Vaymathias]

The examples of other black mages from other games.

All their spells did damage. They had their own enfeebles as well. They were separated and were useful.

This game mixed both and we have horrible results.

Edit: And the Replay music box thread gets a crown... awesome.

So Ice is slightly less powerful than it would be and the same goes for ancient magic, therefore the entire mage system is a failure?

No.