Simple Fix to PLD

[DoctorMog]

Let me spell this out;

PLD is fine, its just a harder class to effectively use.
PLD is more versatile than WAR at tanking and probably is why people are QQing. They can't figure out how to use it. I will chalk this thread up to the inability to correctly use PLD.

WAR
has higher base HP
5 threat generation skills: (Voke, collusion, weaponskill, Flash, Dps)
3 Damage reduction skills: (Rampart Sentnel and foresight)
1 heal: Second Wind
Thats it... Thats all it can do.


PLD:
lower HP, but is more versatile:
6 Threat generation sills: (Provoke, Flat blade, war drum, Flash(Aoe) Spirits Within and Heals)
5 or (7) Damage reduction skills: Aegis Boon, Divine Veil, outmaneuver, rampart, sentinel, (Hallowed Ground 15 mins) (Cover on others)
2 Sources of heals: Cure (sacred prism for aoe) and Holy Succor (also threat generators)
1 Stun: Shield Bash
Cover...
Raise...

All for what? Lower base HP?

I LoL at you sir and bid you "good day"

Maybe you are just a bad PLD.

Edit: I am in NO way saying, PLD should be your main tank in CC or AV or whatever, I am saying that it IS ALREADY a very strong class, people just don't know how to play. It doesn't need a "buff" it needs you to "Learn2play" before suggesting revisions to already well balanced features.

[NoctisUmbra]

Reasons why PLD enmity pales in comparison to WAR

1. Sentinel is broken, so enmity is only boosted through damage. WAR will win with enmity boosts with both Antagonize for abilities and Steel Cyclone + Sentinel combo for damage.

2. Healing damage is spread among all mobs aggro'd. That means if you heal someone for 1000 HP and yourself for 500 HP with holy succor while engaged against 5 mobs, you generate 1500 HP healed * 0.6 healing enmity modifier / 5 mobs = 180 enmity on each mob. Not very impressive now is it?

3. The truly spammable enmity ability, Flat Blade, costs 1000 TP to use and does piddling damage against things that matter. I do at best 20 damage with Flat Blade combo against Ifrit, and even if it DOES have a +4.5x enmity modifier, that's only 100 enmity. Compared to Skull Sunder, which does ~100 damage against Ifrit and ALSO has an enmity modifier similar to Flat Blade, you can see why WARs are so much more impressive.

4. Enmity that can be generated by PLD pales in comparison to Warrior's Steel Cyclone, which gets stronger with each hit he takes while Rampage is up. Against ~Lvl50 mobs, I've been able to do up to 1800 damage to all mobs that I hit, and I can do this every 30 seconds while throwing in Whirlwind combos in between for ~900 damage each combo. That's up to 4500 enmity per minute, which is ridiculous. Throw in Antagonize and Sentinel and you make even more enmity, which makes it ludicrous.

As far as PLD damage mitigation and survival goes...

1. Most damage from things that matter are based on dLvl. This means defense is practically worthless, which makes the higher defense value on PLD that much less desirable. This is especially proven when Kaeko tanked Ifrit using CNJ.

2. The damage mitigated by shield block is not all that impressive, especially on bosses such as Ifrit. If it blocked more and for more damage, especially when Outmaneuver is up, it would definitely be worthwhile of more consideration.

3. Magical damage can only be mitigated through use of defensive abilities (Sentinel, Vengeance with AF), or simply absorbed by large amounts of HP. This WAR has in spades, while PLD is very lacking. If Tempered Will provided magic resists like it did prior to ability changes, then PLD might be able to once again match WAR in absorbing magic damage.

4. Yes PLD can heal himself. Sadly, these heals are cast as spells, and as such are subject to the same limitations. You cannot take excessive amounts of damage while casting, otherwise you get interrupted. You cannot move while casting, otherwise you get interrupted. You are limited to your MP pool to cast. Meanwhile, WARs just spam Bloodbath and Steel Cyclone and Second Wind and heals themselves on the run from an constantly refilling resource that is only limited by timer. Unfair? Yes, yes it is.

As soon as SE addresses these issues, PLD will once again become equally desirable as WAR. Or despised, if they decide to nerf WAR.

Some fair points there for enmity jwang. I wasn't aware that healing-based enmity was shared across all mobs, and while that is a valid cause of concern it provides no downside for fights against single boss mobs. Also, I don't know what you mean by Sentinel being broken. I know it does not enhance enmity generated through heals or Rampart, but I do know it enhances enmity generated by Provoke and Flash.

As for your various points as far as damage mitigation, I am well aware that Defense has a diminished effect and isn't useful, hence my suggestion of a %-based damage mitigation trait.

[Firon]

They have that, its called Defense.

Wear some.

LOL wtf really?

[Majidah]

I can't say I disagree. It's worth noting that I offered 15-20% as a suggested value based on my general feel for the two jobs and their performances.

In the end, I propose the %-based damage mitigation of X value. SE should determine that X value, but do it by taking into consideration primarily how much would be needed for a PLD to sustain HP with only a single WHM and the 500 HP it gets in return from Holy Succor instead of the primary 1k.

If the % isn't 20 then it sounds good; maybe make it non applicable to AOEs would make it more feasible (I mean, otherwise it'd be cake to survive things like hellfire and such, hard to balance).

But yes, this sounds like a nice and clean fix for PLD which IMO is totally broken as we stand. I'm a war 50 and I don't recommend anyone to level it as it is. Its like, if you want to tank... do war; nothing but downsides on pld. (as things stand now)

[NoctisUmbra]

PLD is fine, its just a harder class to effectively use.
PLD is more versatile than WAR at tanking and probably is why people are QQing. They can't figure out how to use it.

WAR
has higher base HP
5 threat generation skills: (Voke, collusion, weaponskill, Flash, Dps)
3 Damage reduction skills: (Rampart Sentnel and foresight)
Thats it... Thats all it can do.


PLD:
lower HP, but is more versatile:
6 Threat generation sills: (Provoke, Flat blade, war drum, Flash(Aoe) Spirits Within and Heals)
5 or (7) Damage reduction skills: Aegis Boon, Divine Veil, outmaneuver, rampart, sentinel, (Hallowed Ground 15 mins) (Cover on others)
2 Sources of heals: Cure (sacred prism for aoe) and Holy Succor (also threat generators)
1 Stun: Shield Bash
Cover...
Raise...

All for what? Lower base HP?

I LoL at you sir and bid you "good day"

Maybe you are just a bad PLD.

You... You're really making it a point to embarrass yourself today aren't you, Mog.

Please, for your own sake just cut your losses here. I'd respond to your points, but I have a feeling enough of the community understands why much of what you just said is incorrect, so I'll just leave you to your own thoughts.

I mean, you suggested that I wear more Defense as a measure of global damage mitigation. Really? Do you actually understand this game anymore?

[NoctisUmbra]

If the % isn't 20 then it sounds good; maybe make it non applicable to AOEs would make it more feasible (I mean, otherwise it'd be cake to survive things like hellfire and such, hard to balance).

But yes, this sounds like a nice and clean fix for PLD which IMO is totally broken as we stand. I'm a war 50 and I don't recommend anyone to level it as it is. Its like, if you want to tank... do war; nothing but downsides on pld. (as things stand now)

Honestly, is it really an issue of balance if PLD can survive AoEs like Hellfire easily as opposed to others? I mean, if the rest of the party wipes, it's not like PLD is gonna solo the rest of the way hitting like a wet noodle.

[DoctorMog]

You... You're really making it a point to embarrass yourself today aren't you, Mog.

Please, for your own sake just cut your losses here. I'd respond to your points here, but I have a feeling enough of the community understands why much of what you just said is incorrect, so I'll just leave you to your own thoughts.

I mean, you suggested that I wear more Defense as a measure of global damage mitigation. Really? Do you actually understand this game anymore?

No I wasn't suggesting players wear more DEF, I was suggesting that PLD already has higher DEF than Leather and cloth wearers, thus already giving it the 10-20% increase in damage reduction you are requesting.

If you are comparing it to WAR, look at my post, PLD is more versatile than WAR, it can heal, it has more threat capabilities and more damage mitigation skills. Yes, they take the same damage on a swing from a boss because they both are wearing plate... And?

PLD can heal itself, others, stun, generate faster threat, etc...

Just admit you can't play PLD and leave it alone.

[Firon]

I can't say I disagree. It's worth noting that I offered 15-20% as a suggested value based on my general feel for the two jobs and their performances.

In the end, I propose the %-based damage mitigation of X value. SE should determine that X value, but do it by taking into consideration primarily how much would be needed for a PLD to sustain HP with only a single WHM and the 500 HP it gets in return from Holy Succor instead of the primary 1k.

I dont think its OP, pld in XI DEF was so good that it took much less dmg than any class. PLD gets hit by Khimera he takes 300 dmg. SAM get hit he takes about 500 dmg, big difference. I also think the stat boosting traits are rather on the low end side gla/pld should get an total of an extra 100 points of def from traits. Some classes stat traits should set them further apart from other classes by a lot. Like everyone knew in XI that it was hard to have more attack than a DRK.

[Majidah]

Let me spell this out;

PLD is fine, its just a harder class to effectively use.
PLD is more versatile than WAR at tanking and probably is why people are QQing. They can't figure out how to use it. I will chalk this thread up to the inability to correctly use PLD.

WAR
has higher base HP
5 threat generation skills: (Voke, collusion, weaponskill, Flash, Dps)
3 Damage reduction skills: (Rampart Sentnel and foresight)
1 heal: Second Wind
Thats it... Thats all it can do.


PLD:
lower HP, but is more versatile:
6 Threat generation sills: (Provoke, Flat blade, war drum, Flash(Aoe) Spirits Within and Heals)
5 or (7) Damage reduction skills: Aegis Boon, Divine Veil, outmaneuver, rampart, sentinel, (Hallowed Ground 15 mins) (Cover on others)
2 Sources of heals: Cure (sacred prism for aoe) and Holy Succor (also threat generators)
1 Stun: Shield Bash
Cover...
Raise...

All for what? Lower base HP?

I LoL at you sir and bid you "good day"

Maybe you are just a bad PLD.

Edit: I am in NO way saying, PLD should be your main tank in CC or AV or whatever, I am saying that it IS ALREADY a very strong class, people just don't know how to play. It doesn't need a "buff" it needs you to "Learn2play" before suggesting revisions to already well balanced features.

thing is, PLD is wet noodle damage; the only thing its good for is tanking. so if it can't main tank CC or AV or whatever, how can you say its any good? might as well get a war who can either DD or sub tank in its place

[NoctisUmbra]

No I wasn't suggesting players wear more DEF, I was suggesting that PLD already has higher DEF than Leather and cloth wearers, thus already giving it the 10-20% increase in damage reduction you are requesting.

OK, apparently you don't understand that 100-200 more Defense does not equate to 10-20% more damage mitigation. Not even for physical attacks, which is all that Defense effects, when at a negative dLv not to mention that it does nothing for magic-based attacks which matter much more.

Even PLD mains have stopped tanking on PLD and instead use WAR. Seriously, what game are you playing Mog?