Simple Fix to PLD

[fusional]

I think that's a completely fair point, I just think arguing that since this doesn't 100% fix PLD it's not worth doing is a bit silly

If PLD is designed to be a tank for real "hard" content when it shows up, so be it. But right now PLD doesn't even have that to look forward to, and I think that's a bit sad which is why this idea is a step in the right direction.

That said...



No bad or dumb involved here, and you don't have to insult to try and make a point . It's not like I haven't seen my share of FF endgame content. Maybe for these battles it seems "dumb," but PLD should excel at something. Not all groups kill stuff in < 2 mins. You're lucky to have fallen in with a shell who does, but that isn't everyone's experience in FFXIV.

You're making yourself looks silly by waving an epeen around when PLD DOES have a damage mitigation problem. If you think PLD doesn't then I don't know what to tell you. You can throw around dps parse numbers all day, it doesn't change the fact that PLD can't take a hit any better than a WAR, and has reduced HP to boot.

my point since the beginning has been very simple. if you want to fix paladin *now* so that people will use it *now*, it is an enmity problem. that isn't to say the other things shouldn't be addressed, but it is to say that if they're addressed first/primarily- the problem persists, and people will still prefer warrior tanks, and the community will still be upset.

That's what you got out of that? Alrighty then! Good to know lol.

That's like me saying:

"Oh, so you do 160 DPS on Miser's Mistress and that's all that matters as an endgame example therefore you must know what you're talking about. It's not like I'm a PGL/MNK main that has hate issues on MM as well. No, you're the one who knows it all and we're dumb.

"OMG look at how much your Howling Fist did on Miser's Mistress in your sig. Woah!"

we use numbers as a metric for performance. it is a simple and effective way to lay the groundwork for an example. there's no ego involved. if that threatens you, it's not my problem.

i provided examples for what monks are capable of under specific conditions, and if monks are doing less dps than that and pulling hate with a warrior tank- it's the tank's fault.

if monks are doing less dps than that and pulling hate with a paladin tank- it's the tank's fault... but often there's not much he can do about it. we've yet to have a single paladin keep hate when our monks hit those numbers. not even when paladin is their main job and they have little experience tanking as warrior.

but this is all futile, because i could tell you exactly what conclusion you should be drawing from this and you'll still miss the mark, because you're not interested in truth. you're only interested in pushing your own agenda, no matter what- facts and objectivity be damned.

[NoctisUmbra]

my point since the beginning has been very simple. if you want to fix paladin *now* so that people will use it *now*, it is an enmity problem. that isn't to say the other things shouldn't be addressed, but it is to say that if they're addressed first/primarily- the problem persists, and people will still prefer warrior tanks, and the community will still be upset.

Even if it held hate as well as WAR, people would prefer WAR tank due to the massive difference in DPS. Nothing gets fixed.

[Jinko]

Even if it held hate as well as WAR, people would prefer WAR tank due to the massive difference in DPS. Nothing gets fixed.

Agree with this, Enmity is only a small part of the problem, people generally take WAR as Noctis suggests because they provide more DPS, more DPS = faster kills, faster kills = faster speed runs.

I really can't see how SE can fix Paladins, I sure as hell don't' want them increasing DPS to compensate for low DPS and enmity gain.

It's why I believe they should nerf MRD/WAR.

As some have suggested making it so Paladin takes less damage would mean you could substitute a WHM out for another DPS, this is the only other fix I can think of.

[Zumi]

It's why I believe they should nerf MRD/WAR.

SE did nerf war in FFXI and there was so much rage over it. Probably not worth them to nerf wars. They nerfed the damage on Ukko, nerfed several abilities like restraint, blood rage, took away passive crit bonuses which they just gave them for lvling to 99.

[Enfarious]

SE did nerf war in FFXI and there was so much rage over it. Probably not worth them to nerf wars. They nerfed the damage on Ukko, nerfed several abilities like restraint, blood rage, took away passive crit bonuses which they just gave them for lvling to 99.

Yeah but SE nerfed and buffed and nerfed and buffed every job over the years, people remember WAR most because it was most recent major nerf, and noone likes when "balancing" means taking stuff away, but really WARs were spittin out 7k dmg in a single WS, yep I was one^^
SAM got some wicked nerfs too, and lets never forget the things they did to RNG, remember the old penta-thrust spamminess(if all hits land you get back 72+% TP gods if your on SAM and pentaspamming)?

If a job is OP you either bring all the rest up to it's level and the game ends up too easy, or you bring the one job down to the level of the rest and people whine.

Sorry this is away from the central point of fixing pld I just couldn't help myself.

[Jinko]

If a job is OP you either bring all the rest up to it's level and the game ends up too easy, or you bring the one job down to the level of the rest and people whine.

This, you will always incur the wrath when making nerfs to classes, all MMO developers go through this, but after a few weeks/month its all forgotten and its business as usual.

[Enfarious]

I hope WAR remains a capable tank, inferior to PLD, but still capable. There are many DD's, but when you reserve key roles to 1 job (PLD / WHM), it's not fun waiting around when the said job isn't available.

Think in the end War == Pld makes good sense, to allow for different party makeups and differing strategies, it adds versatility to party makeups, of course since the only reward going is for speed party versatility is out the window anyway ...

......
It's a bit more complicated than Taking less damage > More enmity. There're steps in between. Multipe stages to the cause and effect. Not very complicated, or at least I thought it wasn't.

It's not complicated at all, some people aren't willing to "hear" any idea that isn't their own tho, which is in and of it's self quite sad.

If people "listened" to all of this there might be a consensus that would be simply:
Add dmg mitigation in an amnt that isn't "stupid"(as a trait both MDT and PDT) + Increase enmity gains (globally as a trait) so that only one whm is needed and another slot opens for another DD + raise block rate(I personally haven't seen a problem w/ dmg reduction from blocks ~50% seems fair enough) == most problems solved

Adding dmg output to pld doesn't go to the heart of pld thoughout history, but hate control and dmg reduction do, as well as "Covering" ones allies.

Those few alterations and suddenly War is still "good" for tanking groups, but when it comes to bosses Pld shines, War slides into DPS mode and goes nuts a DD pulls hate, that's what Cover is for, the Pld gets it back before Cover wears, and then proceeds to save the WHM some headaches by healing the nutjob DD(usually myself) that doesn't want to "cool it".
Adds? War switches to crowd control mode gets the adds BLM AoE them down War switches back to DPS, all the while Pld keeps up hate and healing and the WHM starts to fall asleep. At least that's what I remember things being like once upon a time, isn't that what we all want back?

[NoctisUmbra]

Think in the end War == Pld makes good sense, to allow for different party makeups and differing strategies, it adds versatility to party makeups, of course since the only reward going is for speed party versatility is out the window anyway ...



It's not complicated at all, some people aren't willing to "hear" any idea that isn't their own tho, which is in and of it's self quite sad.

If people "listened" to all of this there might be a consensus that would be simply:
Add dmg mitigation in an amnt that isn't "stupid"(as a trait both MDT and PDT) + Increase enmity gains (globally as a trait) so that only one whm is needed and another slot opens for another DD + raise block rate(I personally haven't seen a problem w/ dmg reduction from blocks ~50% seems fair enough) == most problems solved

Adding dmg output to pld doesn't go to the heart of pld thoughout history, but hate control and dmg reduction do, as well as "Covering" ones allies.

Those few alterations and suddenly War is still "good" for tanking groups, but when it comes to bosses Pld shines, War slides into DPS mode and goes nuts a DD pulls hate, that's what Cover is for, the Pld gets it back before Cover wears, and then proceeds to save the WHM some headaches by healing the nutjob DD(usually myself) that doesn't want to "cool it".
Adds? War switches to crowd control mode gets the adds BLM AoE them down War switches back to DPS, all the while Pld keeps up hate and healing and the WHM starts to fall asleep. At least that's what I remember things being like once upon a time, isn't that what we all want back?

That feeling when someone understands what it is you're trying to say very well. Thank you Enfarious. I agree with this post entirely.

The only thing I'm against increasing on PLD is straight DPS. Making PLD more like WAR isn't a solution. They can increase it's damage mitigation, shield use, and enmity gain and it all makes sense.

[fusional]

Even if it held hate as well as WAR, people would prefer WAR tank due to the massive difference in DPS. Nothing gets fixed.

war holds enmity better in large part *because* of the dps it is capable of. (collusion is pretty helpful, too.) however, that said- the difference in damage output between warrior and paladin in a 2 minute kill is only about 2-3k, assuming the paladin isn't awful. if your dps can't make up that damage, you have bigger problems than your tank.

and what does reducing the damage paladin takes do to fix that, exactly?

But, do you not agree that given an enmity gap PLD should get something else in return? Like taking less damage? There's no reason these tank types need to have an identical methodology, which is what I feel like you're missing.

If that makes Warrior your preferred tank until the end of time that's fine, but as it stands PLD has nothing to offer. This idea at least makes it situational.

it absolutely should, but that would still leave paladin on the sidelines until something is introduced that hits harder and is much more dangerous.

however, people are primarily complaining that paladin isn't wanted over warrior for anything *right now*, and the reduced damage fix won't change that.

[NoctisUmbra]

war holds enmity better in large part *because* of the dps it is capable of. (collusion is pretty helpful, too.) however, that said- the difference in damage output between warrior and paladin in a 2 minute kill is only about 2-3k, assuming the paladin isn't awful. if your dps can't make up that damage, you have bigger problems than your tank.

and what does reducing the damage paladin takes do to fix that, exactly?

Let me know when you've got more to talk about than the 2 minute Miser's Mistress fight.