Simple Fix to PLD

[Daniel_Fury]

First let me say I entirely agree with your post, but I think you need to add one more ingredient to the perfect PLD recipe: enmity.

The bigger problem is hate control. I used to main GLA/PLD since OB but after WAR came out as a logical minded person I had to make the switch to WAR. I have challenged several PLDs to a "tanking contest" where I let them pull a mob, build hate on a mob, and then go crazy on it. Sadly, with JUST regular melee, I get into yellow, my first ws combo gets me red. Even after they have it for 30 seconds if I start my enmity rot there is absolutely nothing they can do to get the mob back.

In that lies my point, it is inefficient to use the PLD tank over a WAR tank because the DDs are handicapped. Not only does it make the fight more stressful but also drastically increases the length of the fight. Even if PLD takes less damage, the total amount of damage sustained is still higher because of a longer fight; for example:

Ifrit with WAR tank takes us an average of 6 minutes, Ifrit on PLD took closer to 10~11 (when he did a lot of plumes, if not his regen carries the fight to 15~)

Say ifrit hits my warrior for 250 damage per second. 6x60 = 360 sec x 250 dmg = 90,000 damage sustained
For paladin, we'll be generous and say 180 dps (20% damage reduct). 10x60 = 600 x 180 = 108,000+. (Longer fights and this number gets goofy large.)

Point is, PLD can get all the defense in the world but unless DDs can use their full strength on the boss, PLD will remain inferior. Not just for speed runs but for safety and smoothness of the fight. My LS has a MNK who on ifrit crits howling fist for 850+. On PLD that attack will pull hate off me even as late as phase 2. On WAR he can howling fist, simian trash, dragon kick, and hundred all in succession with the mob still placed on me. Why would we choose a tanking option that requires him to basically throw away all his dps?

I don't see how so many people have issues with hate on a PLD o.o
It's slower to start than a WAR but that's about it. I downed Ifrit in 6 minutes, as a PLD tank so bviously my DPS didn't have to hold back.

My observations:

I feel like my MP is unlimited most of the time.
I noticed my WAR got hit for a 2.8k VotR on chimera (ouch), I have never been hit this hard on PLD in that fight (Most I've seen is 2.5k).
WAR's Vengeance does not cut Magic dmg by 50%, only physical dmg. Sentinel only cuts 30% on War but 50% on PLD.

My issue with PLD:

No greatsword ; ;

No seriously, I see why people prefer Warrior but I do not see an issue with Paladin in performance of being a TANK.

[Enfarious]

First let me say I entirely agree with your post, but I think you need to add one more ingredient to the perfect PLD recipe: enmity.

The bigger problem is hate control. I used to main GLA/PLD since OB but after WAR came out as a logical minded person I had to make the switch to WAR. I have challenged several PLDs to a "tanking contest" where I let them pull a mob, build hate on a mob, and then go crazy on it. Sadly, with JUST regular melee, I get into yellow, my first ws combo gets me red. Even after they have it for 30 seconds if I start my enmity rot there is absolutely nothing they can do to get the mob back.

In that lies my point, it is inefficient to use the PLD tank over a WAR tank because the DDs are handicapped. Not only does it make the fight more stressful but also drastically increases the length of the fight. Even if PLD takes less damage, the total amount of damage sustained is still higher because of a longer fight; for example:

Ifrit with WAR tank takes us an average of 6 minutes, Ifrit on PLD took closer to 10~11 (when he did a lot of plumes, if not his regen carries the fight to 15~)

Say ifrit hits my warrior for 250 damage per second. 6x60 = 360 sec x 250 dmg = 90,000 damage sustained
For paladin, we'll be generous and say 180 dps (20% damage reduct). 10x60 = 600 x 180 = 108,000+. (Longer fights and this number gets goofy large.)

Point is, PLD can get all the defense in the world but unless DDs can use their full strength on the boss, PLD will remain inferior. Not just for speed runs but for safety and smoothness of the fight. My LS has a MNK who on ifrit crits howling fist for 850+. On PLD that attack will pull hate off me even as late as phase 2. On WAR he can howling fist, simian trash, dragon kick, and hundred all in succession with the mob still placed on me. Why would we choose a tanking option that requires him to basically throw away all his dps?

To the first, your absolutely right, PLD loses hate quickly but you've got to keep in mind that the enmity loss is due in part to the dmg they take, if that dmg is reduced their enmity loss will also be reduced, combine that with more heals from pld > pt_member you also have more enmity generated, it doesn't mean they don't need more than they have, just that the dmg reduction trait that's been suggested about 37mil times throughout the forums would help with more than just reduced dmg.

The second half your missing an element, if you can drop a healer from those fights because the pld doesn't need one focused just on him anymore you can add another DD/Mage which will more than offset the Wars DPS (assuming they're decent for the fight) and lead to a generally shorter fight than with a war tanking.

End result, reusing your calcs. but w/ new pt makeups:

WAR(Tank) MNK MNK DRG BRD BLM WHM WHM:
Ifrit with WAR tank takes us an average of 6 minutes
Say ifrit hits my warrior for 250 damage per second.
6x60 = 360 sec x 250 dmg = 90,000 damage sustained

PLD(Tank) MNK MNK DRG DRG(even a war focused on DPS instead of Tanking) BRD BLM WHM:
PLD w/ added dmg from a second DRG instead a second WHM avg. 4mins
For paladin, we'll be generous and say 180 dps (20% damage reduct).
4x60 = 240 x 180 = 43,200 damage sustained

The fights get shorter w/ the pld because you don't need a second healer, your pld is that second, that extra DD makes fights faster overall and the PLD has less trouble holding hate because of the reduced dmg=reduced enmity loss.

[Majidah]

I don't see how so many people have issues with hate on a PLD o.o
It's slower to start than a WAR but that's about it. I downed Ifrit in 6 minutes, as a PLD tank so bviously my DPS didn't have to hold back.

My observations:

I feel like my MP is unlimited most of the time.
I noticed my WAR got hit for a 2.8k VotR on chimera (ouch), I have never been hit this hard on PLD in that fight (Most I've seen is 2.5k).
WAR's Vengeance does not cut Magic dmg by 50%, only physical dmg. Sentinel only cuts 30% on War but 50% on PLD.

My issue with PLD:

No greatsword ; ;

No seriously, I see why people prefer Warrior but I do not see an issue with Paladin in performance of being a TANK.

If you ask me having to wait for PLD to build hate while WAR can pretty much do it instantly isn't acceptable. PLD should get a huge enmity generating skill on a big timer, or antagonize.

[Daniel_Fury]

If you ask me having to wait for PLD to build hate while WAR can pretty much do it instantly isn't acceptable. PLD should get a huge enmity generating skill on a big timer, or antagonize.

I don't find a 10 second warm up to be a huge loss but having an instant start would be sexy.
However, it isn't the issue. It does not mean they perform badly, they just start slower because we can't collusion pull or chuck antagonize on.
Spirits within is a beast hate spike and all it takes is one auto attack - divine veil - phalanx combo.
Thats my cue for the party to start.

[Gunslinger]

Point is, PLD can get all the defense in the world but unless DDs can use their full strength on the boss, PLD will remain inferior.

We had an acronym for this in FFXI - it was "ONP." Over Nuking ______, you can probably figure it out.

If PLD gets proper damage mitigation you add the possibility of replacing a second WHM with another DD, making it more efficient all around. I understand you're worried about hate, but there should be more strategy to the game than "everyone do as much damage, as fast as you can, all the time." If that's how you want to play (and often, I want to play that way too), tank as a Warrior. But that doesn't mean PLD needs to duplicate those tactics to be successful. PLD can be slower if that's what it takes. But it should at least gain extraordinary survivability for that sacrifice.

I'd take a revised PLD as a "safety" option with people throttling back as needed, leave WAR how it is, everyone is happy. The problem now is PLD has little "endgame" use, giving them proper damage mitigation would help fix that while preserving WAR as it currently is.

[NoctisUmbra]

Alright a few key things I want to mention since the discussion is heating up again.

In regards to enmity, I feel like PLD has the tools it needs, but coupled with many people not knowing when/how to use them and exactly how much enmity they give (ie. what's better for what scenario), PLD is unable to access party healing effectively due to the amount of damage it is taking coupled with it's low HP. Also, how many people actually know that Flat Blade gets a +[4.5 x damage] enmity bonus on combo? Perhaps in the end it will need some more buffs to its enmity generation, but I'd first like to see where PLD is after it gets the defensive buff it has needed all along. Even SE said it would gain greater mitigation. Also, it's worth mentioning that taking damage does not reduce enmity in FFXIV. However, reducing the damage PLD takes makes it less dependent on self-targeting heals with Holy Succor and more available to backup heal party members with it which generates more enmity and also keeps the PLD up as a secondary effect anyway.

Yes, PLD starts building hate slower, but especially with these adjustments I can see it holding hate very, very well. The Collusion boost at the beginning for a WAR tank is very desirable, yes, but I've never denied that WAR tanks should remain desirable- particularly for speed-run scenarios. I simply don't think it makes any sense if a WAR tank outshines a PLD tank in pretty much every scenario, which is what we have now.

As for arguments about DPS. I urge you to read previous pages in the thread (at least skim) so we don't go over the same things again. It's not secret that a WAR puts out more damage so it is preferred as a tank. That is why I emphasize that it's the vital point of balance that PLD requires only 1 WHM in a full party to tank - versus the 2 WHMs that are used as common practice when a WAR is tanking. This opens up a slot for a DD, which more than makes up for the damage deficit.

[Wincy]

I play healer 90% of the time and as such I love when a, well played, paladin is in the group. Tanking or not, a paladin bring a lot of ability that greatly increases a party's survivability.

Just a few things I've seen a great paladin do, when not tanking.
-Time his rampart with the warrior;s rampart making rampart up 100% of the fight.
-Use enmity WS with collusion, granting extra enmity to the warrior.
-Throw cover on the tank when the tank had low hp, get a block, use spirits, and help heal the tank.
-Covering melee so he can start is front combo line,
-With single WHM run the tank died. The paladin took threat, used Hallowed ground, tanked while raising the dead tank. Then took over tanking.
-Take over healing when the WHM died. No really! Everyone gets better mana regen when in passive mode. He healed until the bard could get the WHM back up.

A well played paladin is fantastic and can replace the need for a second WHM. I love running with paladins, sadly few groups let them. Good paladins stop wipes from happening and have the tools to do it.

This is a good post. I'd like to add my 2 cents, as I was considering something very similar the other day. Now I will preface this by saying that I am not into endgame yet (I just capped PLD this weekend), so I could be off base and you can feel free to correct me if that's the case...

I joined a Natalan wolves PT from lvls 43-50 on my PLD. We had 50 WARs tanking, switching up between them so each person could get xp on what they wanted to level as well. Obviously, at 43 I was useless as a tank (actually I was pretty much useless for everything). I spent my time in passive mode, support healing.

But as I leveled up some, 47, 48 I started to be strong enough to take a couple wolves at a time. What I ended up doing for the party was sort of a combo of off-healing and off-tanking. I would throw some heals around after the WAR did his big Whirlwind or whatever. Then if any mobs peeled to the DDs, I would Cover them, pull the adds off them and continue healing as required. I was also able to Protect/Stoneskin and Raise when needed.

So in this way I was performing a sort of hybrid support role. Now I do usually consider PLD to be a heavy tank, and I would probably prefer it to be that way, HOWEVER, I do think this vision of a hybrid heal/tank support role fits in with what a PLD should be as well. Indeed, not every Paladin in every MMO has been a heavy tank. Some have in fact filled roles similar to this, so I don't think it's too foreign. Basically the Paladin is a jack-of-all-trades safety net for the party.

NOW, I do know exactly what the first response to this would be: "But Wincy," you say, "this is no good for speed runs." And I would agree with you, good reader. All I can really say to that is, judging by the apparent dislike this community has for speed runs (myself included), they will hopefully not be a cornerstone of future content...

Actually I personally think speed runs might just be a mechanic to help the servers' load stay low (consider the problem with AV/CC "filling up" when too many parties are running it at once). But that is another topic.

[Jinko]

How do you consider warrior not a perfectly well rounded job? It has more mitigation tools than paladin and their heals are better outside of bosses without fear of being interrupted, and it kills things in the process instead of having casting time, and it has no MP worries. Warrior has no weakness and can solo entire strongholds. How's that for making sense of jobs?

Oh wait, it's "not going to happen"

Thats not well rounded, it's actually quite broken and overpowered, no job should excel at both DPS and Tanking at the same time.

Although the majority like to think this is a problem with Gladiators/Paladins its actually more of a problem with Marauders/warriors and has been for a very long time, jobs just make the situation more noticeable.

I actually think SE should fix MRD/WAR before even considering fixing GLA/PLD.

Change the stances for MRD/WAR's to :-
1) Berserk - Sacrifice a large amount of defence for attack power. (so much so that they can't tank in this stance)
2) Defender - Sacrifice a large amount of attack power for defence. (so much so that they can't DPS effectively in this stance)

Can not change stance during combat.

[Firon]

First let me say I entirely agree with your post, but I think you need to add one more ingredient to the perfect PLD recipe: enmity.

The bigger problem is hate control. I used to main GLA/PLD since OB but after WAR came out as a logical minded person I had to make the switch to WAR. I have challenged several PLDs to a "tanking contest" where I let them pull a mob, build hate on a mob, and then go crazy on it. Sadly, with JUST regular melee, I get into yellow, my first ws combo gets me red. Even after they have it for 30 seconds if I start my enmity rot there is absolutely nothing they can do to get the mob back.

In that lies my point, it is inefficient to use the PLD tank over a WAR tank because the DDs are handicapped. Not only does it make the fight more stressful but also drastically increases the length of the fight. Even if PLD takes less damage, the total amount of damage sustained is still higher because of a longer fight; for example:

Ifrit with WAR tank takes us an average of 6 minutes, Ifrit on PLD took closer to 10~11 (when he did a lot of plumes, if not his regen carries the fight to 15~)

Say ifrit hits my warrior for 250 damage per second. 6x60 = 360 sec x 250 dmg = 90,000 damage sustained
For paladin, we'll be generous and say 180 dps (20% damage reduct). 10x60 = 600 x 180 = 108,000+. (Longer fights and this number gets goofy large.)

Point is, PLD can get all the defense in the world but unless DDs can use their full strength on the boss, PLD will remain inferior. Not just for speed runs but for safety and smoothness of the fight. My LS has a MNK who on ifrit crits howling fist for 850+. On PLD that attack will pull hate off me even as late as phase 2. On WAR he can howling fist, simian trash, dragon kick, and hundred all in succession with the mob still placed on me. Why would we choose a tanking option that requires him to basically throw away all his dps?

This notc while i agree with what you say about pld but war does need a nerf and its only skills that come from gla this is the problem right now to me.

WAR can self heal slightly but it can Second wind, Bloodbath, and hp healed from crts. Has the same enmity tools as pld, Has higher hp and they both take same dmg, it also does more dmg, and dmg reduction abilities.

PLD just has lower hp/dmg, self heals, enmity tools, and takes same dmg as war.

Many may not agree but war does not need gla skills to tank to me, it has to much, and they should take those hate gaining skills and give it an Dd sub so it further keep hate thru dmg. WAR should be holding hate through crts and ws dmg and provoking. While pld should be holding hate thru skills and cure's and taking less dmg.

I don't think any of war skills needs to be change just its subs Gla sub just gives it to much, this is how i see it if war didn't do the dmg it did it would be having the same problems as pld now but no one would complain cause they both would be equal.

[Majidah]

Thats not well rounded, it's actually quite broken and overpowered, no job should excel at both DPS and Tanking at the same time.

Although the majority like to think this is a problem with Gladiators/Paladins its actually more of a problem with Marauders/warriors and has been for a very long time, jobs just make the situation more noticeable.

I actually think SE should fix MRD/WAR before even considering fixing GLA/PLD.

Change the stances for MRD/WAR's to :-
1) Berserk - Sacrifice a large amount of defence for attack power. (so much so that they can't tank in this stance)
2) Defender - Sacrifice a large amount of attack power for defence. (so much so that they can't DPS effectively in this stance)

Can not change stance during combat.

Where's the button to down vote a post when you need it?

WAR tanking comes from its DDing; plus WARs do best against several mobs. Its "okay" against a single one.