Quote Originally Posted by Razor View Post
First let me say I entirely agree with your post, but I think you need to add one more ingredient to the perfect PLD recipe: enmity.

The bigger problem is hate control. I used to main GLA/PLD since OB but after WAR came out as a logical minded person I had to make the switch to WAR. I have challenged several PLDs to a "tanking contest" where I let them pull a mob, build hate on a mob, and then go crazy on it. Sadly, with JUST regular melee, I get into yellow, my first ws combo gets me red. Even after they have it for 30 seconds if I start my enmity rot there is absolutely nothing they can do to get the mob back.

In that lies my point, it is inefficient to use the PLD tank over a WAR tank because the DDs are handicapped. Not only does it make the fight more stressful but also drastically increases the length of the fight. Even if PLD takes less damage, the total amount of damage sustained is still higher because of a longer fight; for example:

Ifrit with WAR tank takes us an average of 6 minutes, Ifrit on PLD took closer to 10~11 (when he did a lot of plumes, if not his regen carries the fight to 15~)

Say ifrit hits my warrior for 250 damage per second. 6x60 = 360 sec x 250 dmg = 90,000 damage sustained
For paladin, we'll be generous and say 180 dps (20% damage reduct). 10x60 = 600 x 180 = 108,000+. (Longer fights and this number gets goofy large.)

Point is, PLD can get all the defense in the world but unless DDs can use their full strength on the boss, PLD will remain inferior. Not just for speed runs but for safety and smoothness of the fight. My LS has a MNK who on ifrit crits howling fist for 850+. On PLD that attack will pull hate off me even as late as phase 2. On WAR he can howling fist, simian trash, dragon kick, and hundred all in succession with the mob still placed on me. Why would we choose a tanking option that requires him to basically throw away all his dps?
To the first, your absolutely right, PLD loses hate quickly but you've got to keep in mind that the enmity loss is due in part to the dmg they take, if that dmg is reduced their enmity loss will also be reduced, combine that with more heals from pld > pt_member you also have more enmity generated, it doesn't mean they don't need more than they have, just that the dmg reduction trait that's been suggested about 37mil times throughout the forums would help with more than just reduced dmg.

The second half your missing an element, if you can drop a healer from those fights because the pld doesn't need one focused just on him anymore you can add another DD/Mage which will more than offset the Wars DPS (assuming they're decent for the fight) and lead to a generally shorter fight than with a war tanking.

End result, reusing your calcs. but w/ new pt makeups:

WAR(Tank) MNK MNK DRG BRD BLM WHM WHM:
Ifrit with WAR tank takes us an average of 6 minutes
Say ifrit hits my warrior for 250 damage per second.
6x60 = 360 sec x 250 dmg = 90,000 damage sustained

PLD(Tank) MNK MNK DRG DRG(even a war focused on DPS instead of Tanking) BRD BLM WHM:
PLD w/ added dmg from a second DRG instead a second WHM avg. 4mins
For paladin, we'll be generous and say 180 dps (20% damage reduct).
4x60 = 240 x 180 = 43,200 damage sustained

The fights get shorter w/ the pld because you don't need a second healer, your pld is that second, that extra DD makes fights faster overall and the PLD has less trouble holding hate because of the reduced dmg=reduced enmity loss.