Simple Fix to PLD

[fusional]

Because maybe this game will eventually have a boss that doesn't rely on a speed kill to get a chest? It's not hard to imagine a time/situation where your DPSs won't be balls-to-the-wall every second of their existence (as much fun as that is).

This whole "but how will they keep hate?!" argument totally ignores the other side of the equation; DDs should be responsible for their hate as well, not just the tank. This is one thing FFXI had right. They didn't give Dragoons Evasive Jump for nothing, you know? PLD hate is not the problem, that's a play-style issue and a choice that a party/LS makes (yes, more hate is always nice). The fact that PLD takes roughly the same damage as a warrior (since they, gasp, wear the same gear) is the real problem.

i could see where giving them some sort of damage reduction mechanic would help to future-proof them, but for now it ignores the problem of what exactly is wrong with the job. (and besides- they don't need a global damage reduction. just fix shield block the same way it was fixed in FFXI to make paladin viable again as a mitigation tank. slightly more HP is just a bonus.)

as far as the whole keeping hate thing- not exactly. without corselet i can do 155+ dps on mistress. with corselet our best mnk can do 160. if i pull hate, i immediately call it out and move to the tank's position so no one gets bad breath. because i'm not an idiot. and if i have chameleon, i use it, then move back with melee.

but, here's the thing. if everyone is playing correctly, we kill mistress in under 2 minutes. if everyone is playing correctly, and our tank is a warrior- i don't have to hold back at all. if everyone is playing correctly, and our tank is a paladin- i do. and so does everyone else. and then we don't kill in under 2 minutes.

if a fight is designed in such a way that NO tank can easily threat cap faster than dps, and stay there- yes, it is on the dps to watch their aggro and not pull hate and cause a wipe. (coincounter, chimera) but if a fight is designed in such a way that a tank CAN threat cap faster than dps, and stay there- no, i will absolutely not hold back unless i don't trust the tank. (mistress) and in that situation i'll probably be telling my tank to perform better, because i shouldn't have to hold back at all.

paladin taking the same damage as warrior isn't the problem unless you're bad and/or dumb and/or completely barking up the wrong tree. throw on some healing gear and do some speed runs as whm, you'll see.

or maybe you won't. lol.

[NoctisUmbra]

i could see where giving them some sort of damage reduction mechanic would help to future-proof them, but for now it ignores the problem of what exactly is wrong with the job. (and besides- they don't need a global damage reduction. just fix shield block the same way it was fixed in FFXI to make paladin viable again as a mitigation tank. slightly more HP is just a bonus.)

as far as the whole keeping hate thing- not exactly. without corselet i can do 155+ dps on mistress. with corselet our best mnk can do 160. if i pull hate, i immediately call it out and move to the tank's position so no one gets bad breath. because i'm not an idiot. and if i have chameleon, i use it, then move back with melee.

but, here's the thing. if everyone is playing correctly, we kill mistress in under 2 minutes. if everyone is playing correctly, and our tank is a warrior- i don't have to hold back at all. if everyone is playing correctly, and our tank is a paladin- i do. and so does everyone else. and then we don't kill in under 2 minutes.

if a fight is designed in such a way that NO tank can easily threat cap faster than dps, and stay there- yes, it is on the dps to watch their aggro and not pull hate and cause a wipe. (coincounter, chimera) but if a fight is designed in such a way that a tank CAN threat cap faster than dps, and stay there- no, i will absolutely not hold back unless i don't trust the tank. (mistress) and in that situation i'll probably be telling my tank to perform better, because i shouldn't have to hold back at all.

paladin taking the same damage as warrior isn't the problem unless you're bad and/or dumb and/or completely barking up the wrong tree. throw on some healing gear and do some speed runs as whm, you'll see.

or maybe you won't. lol.

Miser's Mistress is not the shining example of all endgame scenarios. Not many fights out there that even allow for reaching and maintaining 160 DPS.

Shields do not block magical attacks, which do far more than physical ones. Can shields use some buffs/fixes? Sure. Is it enough? No.

SE said PLD would gain greater defense. It hasn't. It is designed almost entirely around being completely defensive, yet it barely mitigates more than WAR. That's why it is so imperative.

Can they look into enmity after that and perhaps buff it more? Sure, why not.

[Gunslinger]

I think that's a completely fair point, I just think arguing that since this doesn't 100% fix PLD it's not worth doing is a bit silly

If PLD is designed to be a tank for real "hard" content when it shows up, so be it. But right now PLD doesn't even have that to look forward to, and I think that's a bit sad which is why this idea is a step in the right direction.

That said...

paladin taking the same damage as warrior isn't the problem unless you're bad and/or dumb and/or completely barking up the wrong tree.

No bad or dumb involved here, and you don't have to insult to try and make a point . It's not like I haven't seen my share of FF endgame content. Maybe for these battles it seems "dumb," but PLD should excel at something. Not all groups kill stuff in < 2 mins. You're lucky to have fallen in with a shell who does, but that isn't everyone's experience in FFXIV.

You're making yourself looks silly by waving an epeen around when PLD DOES have a damage mitigation problem. If you think PLD doesn't then I don't know what to tell you. You can throw around dps parse numbers all day, it doesn't change the fact that PLD can't take a hit any better than a WAR, and has reduced HP to boot.

[fusional]

so, basically they can "fix" the things you want "fixed" and people can continue to take warrior tanks anyway because you still didn't "fix" the actual reason people are rolling with warriors in the first place.

got it.

[NoctisUmbra]

so, basically they can "fix" the things you want "fixed" and people can continue to take warrior tanks anyway because you still didn't "fix" the actual reason people are rolling with warriors in the first place.

got it.

That's what you got out of that? Alrighty then! Good to know lol.

That's like me saying:

"Oh, so you do 160 DPS on Miser's Mistress and that's all that matters as an endgame example therefore you must know what you're talking about. It's not like I'm a PGL/MNK main that has hate issues on MM as well. No, you're the one who knows it all and we're dumb.

"OMG look at how much your Howling Fist did on Miser's Mistress in your sig. Woah!"

[fusional]

I think that's a completely fair point, I just think arguing that since this doesn't 100% fix PLD it's not worth doing is a bit silly

If PLD is designed to be a tank for real "hard" content when it shows up, so be it. But right now PLD doesn't even have that to look forward to, and I think that's a bit sad which is why this idea is a step in the right direction.

That said...



No bad or dumb involved here, and you don't have to insult to try and make a point . It's not like I haven't seen my share of FF endgame content. Maybe for these battles it seems "dumb," but PLD should excel at something. Not all groups kill stuff in < 2 mins. You're lucky to have fallen in with a shell who does, but that isn't everyone's experience in FFXIV.

You're making yourself looks silly by waving an epeen around when PLD DOES have a damage mitigation problem. If you think PLD doesn't then I don't know what to tell you. You can throw around dps parse numbers all day, it doesn't change the fact that PLD can't take a hit any better than a WAR, and has reduced HP to boot.

my point since the beginning has been very simple. if you want to fix paladin *now* so that people will use it *now*, it is an enmity problem. that isn't to say the other things shouldn't be addressed, but it is to say that if they're addressed first/primarily- the problem persists, and people will still prefer warrior tanks, and the community will still be upset.

That's what you got out of that? Alrighty then! Good to know lol.

That's like me saying:

"Oh, so you do 160 DPS on Miser's Mistress and that's all that matters as an endgame example therefore you must know what you're talking about. It's not like I'm a PGL/MNK main that has hate issues on MM as well. No, you're the one who knows it all and we're dumb.

"OMG look at how much your Howling Fist did on Miser's Mistress in your sig. Woah!"

we use numbers as a metric for performance. it is a simple and effective way to lay the groundwork for an example. there's no ego involved. if that threatens you, it's not my problem.

i provided examples for what monks are capable of under specific conditions, and if monks are doing less dps than that and pulling hate with a warrior tank- it's the tank's fault.

if monks are doing less dps than that and pulling hate with a paladin tank- it's the tank's fault... but often there's not much he can do about it. we've yet to have a single paladin keep hate when our monks hit those numbers. not even when paladin is their main job and they have little experience tanking as warrior.

but this is all futile, because i could tell you exactly what conclusion you should be drawing from this and you'll still miss the mark, because you're not interested in truth. you're only interested in pushing your own agenda, no matter what- facts and objectivity be damned.

[NoctisUmbra]

my point since the beginning has been very simple. if you want to fix paladin *now* so that people will use it *now*, it is an enmity problem. that isn't to say the other things shouldn't be addressed, but it is to say that if they're addressed first/primarily- the problem persists, and people will still prefer warrior tanks, and the community will still be upset.

Even if it held hate as well as WAR, people would prefer WAR tank due to the massive difference in DPS. Nothing gets fixed.

[Gunslinger]

It think fusional's point is fair, and comes across much better when it's not all hurf-durf with self-righteousness.

That said, enmity is something a group can chose to deal with, if they want. If not, take the Warrior, fine. I have both, I really don't care.

But, do you not agree that given an enmity gap PLD should get something else in return? Like taking less damage? There's no reason these tank types need to have an identical methodology, which is what I feel like you're missing.

If that makes Warrior your preferred tank until the end of time that's fine, but as it stands PLD has nothing to offer. This idea at least makes it situational.

[NoctisUmbra]

It think fusional's point is fair, and comes across much better when it's not all hurf-durf with self-righteousness.

That said, enmity is something a group can chose to deal with, if they want. If not, take the Warrior, fine. I have both, I really don't care.

But, do you not agree that given an enmity gap PLD should get something else in return? Like taking less damage? There's no reason these tank types need to have an identical methodology, which is what I feel like you're missing.

If that makes Warrior your preferred tank until the end of time that's fine, but as it stands PLD has nothing to offer. This idea at least makes it situational.

Oh, there's quite a lot that fusional here is missing and his self-righteous tone isn't helping at all.

I never outright disagreed with the idea that PLD should get a buff to enmity generation. It would help it for sure. However it's fusional who appears to be disagreeing that PLD needs greater mitigation.

[Zumi]

Tanking is kind of broke altogether. Which is why we have this problem in FFXIV, its just not balanced at all, leading to a War out preforming a PLD in every way. This could be one of those maybe it will get fixed in 2.0 but who knows.

They could fix it by doing what they did in WoW. WoW they have 4 classes that can tank, paladin, death knight, druid, warrior. All the classes that can tank have tanking stances, while they are in their tanking stance, basically means their dps is much lower compared to dps classes, the survivability is much higher then everyone else, the threat they generate through damage is 500% higher. Tanks are pretty balanced so that you can take any of the 4 to do raids with.