Simple Fix to PLD

[Dragon]

I think the way Paladin needs to be is similar to how it was in FFXI for the majority of its life: "good enough that even lazy paladins can tank decently, so that a good paladin cannot be matched in tanking ability while a good party doesn't necessarily need it."

You see, WAR is not difficult. When tanking on WAR, you're actually just being a DD that doesn't manage enmity, instead thrives on it (sound familiar?), and you're going apeshit while you act as a damage sponge with your large pool of HP. In short, as a WAR you're just facerolling the keyboard. Just blarghwrwujyerrwuknfdv... so to speak. A PLD on the other hand plays more like NNGGGFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF!... as you try ever so hard to make sure you're following the right cooldowns, stacking the right skills, and more importantly than the rest, curing yourself with Holy Succor every chance you get to make sure you stay alive due to what little HP you have. It's hectic. So while it's more effortless and direct on WAR, it's much more work and less obvious on PLD. Right now, that may seem unjustified, unbalanced, unfair... un-whatever. What I see there is not a problem though, but an opportunity so to speak. There's a clear distinction between WAR and PLD as tanks. They're inherently different in style and use- or meant to be.

Though I still agree with you overall about PLD needing stuff and whatnot, this is false, at least for me and my fellow warriors: I never ever faceroll when tanking as Warrior, and I don't know anyone that does, we're just as methodological as a good Paladin is...

Even if it doesn't solve the PLD problem I'd like the idea of jobs having their own trait (currently only classes have traits). Be even better if they passed on their trait in the form of a slightly watered down version to their party; i.e. if PLD's ...IM A PLD? trait is -25% damage reduction everyone else in party might get a -10% damage reduction just from having a PLD in the party.

It'd also encourage people to not class stack since you only get one party trait per job i.e. having two PLDs is still -10% damage reduction not 20. Also yeah jobs not classes because jobs are supposedly supposed to be the preferred party class so bonuses to the party for using a job rather than just personal bonuses would be nice.

That would be worthy of its own thread too.

[Andrien]

I still think PLD need a weapon skill where the damage modifier is the current enmity you have on a target.

More enmity = higher damage
High damage = more enmity
If you have no enmity on the target it does weak damage.

Let it cap at 1500 damage or something.

[YuriSan]

YESH!!!!

Then more peeps would say OMGPLDFTW!!!!!

[Elexia]

I still think PLD need a weapon skill where the damage modifier is the current enmity you have on a target.

More enmity = higher damage
High damage = more enmity
If you have no enmity on the target it does weak damage.

Let it cap at 1500 damage or something.

I was assuming SE woulda been wise enough to reintroduce Atonement, aka exactly what you're talking about. It not only lets PLD do consistent damage, it further increases and keeps their enmity intact.

[LadySaeko]

Let's address some of these points, shall we? I'm not going to argue that there aren't pople who don't know how to play PLD well- it's not so obvious as faceroll WAR tank after all.

Then, let's get to your suggestion of stacking VIT/DEX. Funny, is the first word that comes to mind. Next is late.

Let's first talk about stacking DEX on PLD, and how much of a waste of stats it turns out to be especially at level 50. There was even a dev post stating how diminished the effect of DEX is on block rate at higher levels as opposed to stacking more Block Rate. Put that aside, PLD has no trouble getting blocks, what with Aegis Boon, Divine Veil and Outmaneuver. I've got nothing on extra DEX for PLD and I block very often.

You know what tends to be the most devastating attacks bosses have, that also happen to be impossible to block with a shield? Magical attacks. Honestly, read the thread more. PLD has no issue mitigating physical damage. Magical damage on the other hand, not so good.

Also VIT, I won't bash so much. Personally I do VIT/MND, though I am considering STR/MND. MND makes the most sense of all the stats, as PLD is meant to be healing very often and also MND is a bonus attribute to damage as well, which helps enmity both directly and as a boost to the combo bonus of Flat Blade. Thing is, VIT also doesn't provide much in the way of damage mitigation at higher levels. Now I was mistaken about Defense being effected by dLv, but I'm pretty sure I read dLv plays a large role in how much mitigation VIT provides. Please correct me if I'm wrong again Kaeko.

Enmity overall isn't the issue with PLD. It's just not so obvious as WAR, who simply does high DPS and enhances the enmity generation of it with Vengeance and Sentinel. Plain and simple. PLD requires more clever use of enmity bonuses. Did you know the enmity bonus of Flat Blade, which was recently adjusted, is now 4.5x damage done. So say you do 200 damage with Flat Blade. The bonus is then 4.5 x 200 = 900. This bonus is added to the enmity generated purely through damage, and thus Flat Blade in that instance grants you 200 + 900 = 1100 enmity. With repeated use of Rampart, War Drum, Flash and repeated heals PLD should have no trouble keeping hate on multiple mobs as well.

Saying block > dex for proc rate is like saying att > str or whatever other specific trait youd like vs its corresponding attribute at higher levels for those that apply right? Everything is diminished when you take a r50 and stick it in front of say Ifrit lol doesnt mean its not increased but I could be mistaken. Wish I could get more block+ besides sentinel gear because Id love to not stack so much DEX. I'm glad you tested this yourself because now Ill just ignore my huge increase in partial and full block rate after constantly testing with 310 DEX vs 190/213 DEX when not using shield abilites or when those abilities are never on cooldown. For most people testing an attribute ends with putting on 2 matching rings for a few fights and crying that they dont make a difference. Sorry I dont cling to the absolute specifics others post or do that parser thing lol im old fashioned xP I go out and test for myself on monsters 50+ and Boss/NMs go back in my log and write down totals and do some averages. I find it fun ^^ next is evasion for me.

Only magic attacks in the game that give me problems are chimeras WAR and PLD both gota run like chickens for those. Nothing else coming to mind atm iunno what else gives you magic problems? Most others hit me good enough to actually leave room for me to cure myself before a healer caps me off which is a great enmity tool. I did read the thread its the same as the rest of them QQ PLD and the whole "vastly inferior" thing lol. I just dont feel the same way ^^; and Im sorry for choosing your thread to say I disagree xP. Only true advantage I find is in the base HP. Id love to have more than 3400 without slapping on dbl hp meld set. I wish they didnt get rid of shell even though you can pop an ironwill pancea if magic damage is your problem lol not sure if it actually gives magic def but it says effect of shell :P I havent used them myself yet but I did find it cute with the whole assuming I dont know my head from my ass when it comes to shield and magic attacks made me laugh.

Your right WAR is easier to play lol I play them both but to be fair I havent dived into WAR equip as much as PLD and I find the skill level, timing and attension I need to give my WAR while tanking to be far less than what PLD demands so is that the answer people want? make PLD simple like WAR to be far superior? I dont mind either tanking lol I find them both to be good if played properly. I personally dislike healing WAR vs PLD for whatever thats worth lol since Ive got to heal maybe 2? good PLD so far post revamp. Only thing Id like to see is cover be made useful lol WARs tanking abilities are all useful so Id like to see cover redone at least.

"repeated use of rampart, war drum & flash" cooldowns? I know I got them. Also the Flat Blade thing leaves me confused so if you deal dmg/generate x amount of enmity on a single target that same enmity spreads to all surrounding enemies when poping said aoe abilities? I might be reading what you said wrong about Flat Blade into the "repeated" ability thing for AOE tanking. AOE tanking is all WAR which is fine cause I like aoe collusion off the BLM and cyclone on my WAR by the time PLD AOE abilties cooldown is up theres already way too much AOE dmg thrown around for them to pull hate back ; ; Ive tried. It just gets old with all the constant PLD gimp everywhere I turn in game and here on forums when it really isnt.

Oh id very much like a link on the whole DEX Block diminished thing posted by a dev if anyone would be so kind ^^ I miss alot and was just trying to help out other PLD with another option to try for themselves. I've tried other builds and they failed so I now personally consider them to be wrong for PLD :P perhaps a bad choice of words. My setup and play for PLD has been working & I get positive /tells from many random players on my PLD lol mostly WHM on how easy it is to heal me. I do alot of random pickups a day when Im on usually so Im always dealing with tons of different ways to do things.

Sorry for the long post :P my boredom level is at an all time high now with very little left I want to play ; ;

[LadySaeko]

Would you please elaborate on the difference between a partial block and a full block? Thanks in advance.

Also, why block Onrush (and care about the mitigation you can get on it) when you can dodge it, or even better, completely eliminate it from the fight? I hope you see how this is relevant to the current dungeons and bosses, and the situation the two tanks are in.

Full block will block the entire attack dealing you 0 dmg. Partial block cuts the damage you would have taken in 1/2 roughly. On the higher lvl NM or Boss types I get far more partials vs fulls compared to the r50-60 normal enemies because their stats are way higher I assume or like the OP said diminished results vs the higher stuff.

I take Onrush to test shield proc of partials and fulls against TP moves and the dmg I take. I normally dodge the long TP moves.

[GinTama]

i just fully agree with op

[NoctisUmbra]

I know a good number of PLDs who were once on the DEX bandwagon, but have now come to their senses and switched over. To each his own I suppose.

Although from your analogy of block rate to DEX being like attack to STR, as well as other statements scattered throughout your post its safe to say you're not familiar with what detailed testing we already have available as far as stats and attribute points go. You may enjoy your old fashioned testing, but there are many reasons to parse such testing; a larger trial count being a primary one.

Now you can enjoy your delusion that PLD is perfectly balanced and worthwhile and that pretty much nobody but you knows how to play it right/well... but the rest of us who know the nitty gritty of many of the quantitative details behind this game can hold our discussion.

Also, no idea how you read my OP and came to the conclusion that it was another QQ thread, but oh well lol.

[Firon]

I know a good number of PLDs who were once on the DEX bandwagon, but have now come to their senses and switched over. To each his own I suppose.

Although from your analogy of block rate to DEX being like attack to STR, as well as other statements scattered throughout your post its safe to say you're not familiar with what detailed testing we already have available as far as stats and attribute points go. You may enjoy your old fashioned testing, but there are many reasons to parse such testing; a larger trial count being a primary one.

Now you can enjoy your delusion that PLD is perfectly balanced and worthwhile and that pretty much nobody but you knows how to play it right/well... but the rest of us who know the nitty gritty of many of the quantitative details behind this game can hold our discussion.

Also, no idea how you read my OP and came to the conclusion that it was another QQ thread, but oh well lol.

I wanna see this vid with all these blocks this pld is doing vs bosses w/o skills. Please post parse or video.

@ the person who says you don't have to hold back with war tank is bs lol.

NoctisUmbra, Here are a few changes i think they need to make and i also think pld is fighting vs this crappy dlvl/system mechanics more than any other job/class in the game also.

1. Spirits combo needs to do dmg base on enmity and lock the dmg at an 500-700 dmg cap.

2. Block rate this needs to be fixed. Shield is an paper weight.

3. Something needs to be done about magic dmg. Let shield block all attacks even magic.

4 This goes for all classes the traits with stats attached to them need to be Tweaked so classes stand out from each other, every class in xi had traits that made them stand out from other classes, the bonuses we have from traits do jack shit to make the classes stand out except the ones that enhance skills. Like in xi a naked pld could have something like 200 def with nothing on, or people know drgs was one of the only classes who didn't really need to stack acc or DRK had stupid high attack or RDM cast spells the fastest. what we have now is crappy triats with low stat modifiers and such.

5. many may not agree but i think some of Gla Tanking skills need to be locked to its class only like Rampart. I honestly feel like War should be tanking with pure dmg and fewer hate gaining skills, not with pure dmg and hp gaining skills and hate skills and dmg reduction skills makes no sense. I feel war has the same options as pld but better. would love if Se made Sent GLA only to kick that crutch from all most of the players in the game. So pld should be lower hp dmg reduction and healing. War should be Few hate gaining skill with hate through dmg and higher hp. Currently WAR does everything a pld does but better, that is taking less dmg dealing more dmg and hell i think it prob heals it self better with crts lol.

[Kaeko]

The only full block you can achieve since 1.19 is through Aegis Boon. Every other block in the game has to be a 'partial block'. Takes about 15 minutes of 'testing' (more like eyeballing) to figure this out.