Simple Fix to PLD

[NoctisUmbra]

Also think need some kind of AoE damage that can challenge the damage and hate capabilities of War's AoE. I'm thinking maybe bring Circle Blade back.

As far as AoE hate generation goes, I feel that PLD's Flash, Rampart and War Drum do a sufficient job. Healing as well generates hate on every engaged mob, as opposed to damage. PLD, by design, is meant to hold hate not through damage but through abilities and healing. Therefore the problem isn't damage.

This is why I emphasize that the key point here is that using a PLD instead of a WAR should effectively free up a WHM slot, as PLD can act as a WHM. In order to accomplish this, it needs to be taking less damage. Until that scenario is fulfilled, PLD needs tweaking.

[Majidah]

20% is overpowered.

[NoctisUmbra]

20% is overpowered.

I can't say I disagree. It's worth noting that I offered 15-20% as a suggested value based on my general feel for the two jobs and their performances.

In the end, I propose the %-based damage mitigation of X value. SE should determine that X value, but do it by taking into consideration primarily how much would be needed for a PLD to sustain HP with only a single WHM and the 500 HP it gets in return from Holy Succor instead of the primary 1k.

[Majidah]

I can't say I disagree. It's worth noting that I offered 15-20% as a suggested value based on my general feel for the two jobs and their performances.

In the end, I propose the %-based damage mitigation of X value. SE should determine that X value, but do it by taking into consideration primarily how much would be needed for a PLD to sustain HP with only a single WHM and the 500 HP it gets in return from Holy Succor instead of the primary 1k.

If the % isn't 20 then it sounds good; maybe make it non applicable to AOEs would make it more feasible (I mean, otherwise it'd be cake to survive things like hellfire and such, hard to balance).

But yes, this sounds like a nice and clean fix for PLD which IMO is totally broken as we stand. I'm a war 50 and I don't recommend anyone to level it as it is. Its like, if you want to tank... do war; nothing but downsides on pld. (as things stand now)

[NoctisUmbra]

If the % isn't 20 then it sounds good; maybe make it non applicable to AOEs would make it more feasible (I mean, otherwise it'd be cake to survive things like hellfire and such, hard to balance).

But yes, this sounds like a nice and clean fix for PLD which IMO is totally broken as we stand. I'm a war 50 and I don't recommend anyone to level it as it is. Its like, if you want to tank... do war; nothing but downsides on pld. (as things stand now)

Honestly, is it really an issue of balance if PLD can survive AoEs like Hellfire easily as opposed to others? I mean, if the rest of the party wipes, it's not like PLD is gonna solo the rest of the way hitting like a wet noodle.

[Firon]

I can't say I disagree. It's worth noting that I offered 15-20% as a suggested value based on my general feel for the two jobs and their performances.

In the end, I propose the %-based damage mitigation of X value. SE should determine that X value, but do it by taking into consideration primarily how much would be needed for a PLD to sustain HP with only a single WHM and the 500 HP it gets in return from Holy Succor instead of the primary 1k.

I dont think its OP, pld in XI DEF was so good that it took much less dmg than any class. PLD gets hit by Khimera he takes 300 dmg. SAM get hit he takes about 500 dmg, big difference. I also think the stat boosting traits are rather on the low end side gla/pld should get an total of an extra 100 points of def from traits. Some classes stat traits should set them further apart from other classes by a lot. Like everyone knew in XI that it was hard to have more attack than a DRK.

[jwang]

Reasons why PLD enmity pales in comparison to WAR

1. Sentinel is broken, so enmity is only boosted through damage. WAR will win with enmity boosts with both Antagonize for abilities and Steel Cyclone + Sentinel combo for damage.

2. Healing damage is spread among all mobs aggro'd. That means if you heal someone for 1000 HP and yourself for 500 HP with holy succor while engaged against 5 mobs, you generate 1500 HP healed * 0.6 healing enmity modifier / 5 mobs = 180 enmity on each mob. Not very impressive now is it?

3. The truly spammable enmity ability, Flat Blade, costs 1000 TP to use and does piddling damage against things that matter. I do at best 20 damage with Flat Blade combo against Ifrit, and even if it DOES have a +4.5x enmity modifier, that's only 100 enmity. Compared to Skull Sunder, which does ~100 damage against Ifrit and ALSO has an enmity modifier similar to Flat Blade, you can see why WARs are so much more impressive.

4. Enmity that can be generated by PLD pales in comparison to Warrior's Steel Cyclone, which gets stronger with each hit he takes while Rampage is up. Against ~Lvl50 mobs, I've been able to do up to 1800 damage to all mobs that I hit, and I can do this every 30 seconds while throwing in Whirlwind combos in between for ~900 damage each combo. That's up to 4500 enmity per minute, which is ridiculous. Throw in Antagonize and Sentinel and you make even more enmity, which makes it ludicrous.

As far as PLD damage mitigation and survival goes...

1. Most damage from things that matter are based on dLvl. This means defense is practically worthless, which makes the higher defense value on PLD that much less desirable. This is especially proven when Kaeko tanked Ifrit using CNJ.

2. The damage mitigated by shield block is not all that impressive, especially on bosses such as Ifrit. If it blocked more and for more damage, especially when Outmaneuver is up, it would definitely be worthwhile of more consideration.

3. Magical damage can only be mitigated through use of defensive abilities (Sentinel, Vengeance with AF), or simply absorbed by large amounts of HP. This WAR has in spades, while PLD is very lacking. If Tempered Will provided magic resists like it did prior to ability changes, then PLD might be able to once again match WAR in absorbing magic damage.

4. Yes PLD can heal himself. Sadly, these heals are cast as spells, and as such are subject to the same limitations. You cannot take excessive amounts of damage while casting, otherwise you get interrupted. You cannot move while casting, otherwise you get interrupted. You are limited to your MP pool to cast. Meanwhile, WARs just spam Bloodbath and Steel Cyclone and Second Wind and heals themselves on the run from an constantly refilling resource that is only limited by timer. Unfair? Yes, yes it is.

As soon as SE addresses these issues, PLD will once again become equally desirable as WAR. Or despised, if they decide to nerf WAR.

[NoctisUmbra]

Reasons why PLD enmity pales in comparison to WAR

1. Sentinel is broken, so enmity is only boosted through damage. WAR will win with enmity boosts with both Antagonize for abilities and Steel Cyclone + Sentinel combo for damage.

2. Healing damage is spread among all mobs aggro'd. That means if you heal someone for 1000 HP and yourself for 500 HP with holy succor while engaged against 5 mobs, you generate 1500 HP healed * 0.6 healing enmity modifier / 5 mobs = 180 enmity on each mob. Not very impressive now is it?

3. The truly spammable enmity ability, Flat Blade, costs 1000 TP to use and does piddling damage against things that matter. I do at best 20 damage with Flat Blade combo against Ifrit, and even if it DOES have a +4.5x enmity modifier, that's only 100 enmity. Compared to Skull Sunder, which does ~100 damage against Ifrit and ALSO has an enmity modifier similar to Flat Blade, you can see why WARs are so much more impressive.

4. Enmity that can be generated by PLD pales in comparison to Warrior's Steel Cyclone, which gets stronger with each hit he takes while Rampage is up. Against ~Lvl50 mobs, I've been able to do up to 1800 damage to all mobs that I hit, and I can do this every 30 seconds while throwing in Whirlwind combos in between for ~900 damage each combo. That's up to 4500 enmity per minute, which is ridiculous. Throw in Antagonize and Sentinel and you make even more enmity, which makes it ludicrous.

As far as PLD damage mitigation and survival goes...

1. Most damage from things that matter are based on dLvl. This means defense is practically worthless, which makes the higher defense value on PLD that much less desirable. This is especially proven when Kaeko tanked Ifrit using CNJ.

2. The damage mitigated by shield block is not all that impressive, especially on bosses such as Ifrit. If it blocked more and for more damage, especially when Outmaneuver is up, it would definitely be worthwhile of more consideration.

3. Magical damage can only be mitigated through use of defensive abilities (Sentinel, Vengeance with AF), or simply absorbed by large amounts of HP. This WAR has in spades, while PLD is very lacking. If Tempered Will provided magic resists like it did prior to ability changes, then PLD might be able to once again match WAR in absorbing magic damage.

4. Yes PLD can heal himself. Sadly, these heals are cast as spells, and as such are subject to the same limitations. You cannot take excessive amounts of damage while casting, otherwise you get interrupted. You cannot move while casting, otherwise you get interrupted. You are limited to your MP pool to cast. Meanwhile, WARs just spam Bloodbath and Steel Cyclone and Second Wind and heals themselves on the run from an constantly refilling resource that is only limited by timer. Unfair? Yes, yes it is.

As soon as SE addresses these issues, PLD will once again become equally desirable as WAR. Or despised, if they decide to nerf WAR.

Some fair points there for enmity jwang. I wasn't aware that healing-based enmity was shared across all mobs, and while that is a valid cause of concern it provides no downside for fights against single boss mobs. Also, I don't know what you mean by Sentinel being broken. I know it does not enhance enmity generated through heals or Rampart, but I do know it enhances enmity generated by Provoke and Flash.

As for your various points as far as damage mitigation, I am well aware that Defense has a diminished effect and isn't useful, hence my suggestion of a %-based damage mitigation trait.

[jwang]

Some fair points there for enmity jwang. I wasn't aware that healing-based enmity was shared across all mobs, and while that is a valid cause of concern it provides no downside for fights against single boss mobs. Also, I don't know what you mean by Sentinel being broken. I know it does not enhance enmity generated through heals or Rampart, but I do know it enhances enmity generated by Provoke and Flash.

As for your various points as far as damage mitigation, I am well aware that Defense has a diminished effect and isn't useful, hence my suggestion of a %-based damage mitigation trait.

Sentinel is supposed to boost enmity done by ALL actions. ALL actions, as stated by the tooltip. So when I pop Sentinel, I expect every thing I do, whether it's auto-attack, an ability, healing, or weaponskill, to generate an increased amount of enmity. Not this shenanigans with some abilities not getting boosted.

Also, don't you find WAR's unlimited resource to heal himself in addition to having it instant and castable on the move unfair to PLDs? PLDs have to manage MP, time their casts so that they don't get interrupted, and know who is in range and can be healed to generate maximum hate. In comparison, WARs just faceroll and gain enmity, no worries about survival just pop Bloodbath and Mighty Strikes!

Reduce MP cost for Holy Succor as well as make it instant cast, restore more MP from Outmaneuver, make one of PLD's moves convert TP to MP, make one of PLD's abilities solely for magic resistance, make shield blocks actually something that is meaningful outside of trash and XP, and fix Sentinel for crying out loud!

[NoctisUmbra]

Sentinel is supposed to boost enmity done by ALL actions. ALL actions, as stated by the tooltip. So when I pop Sentinel, I expect every thing I do, whether it's auto-attack, an ability, healing, or weaponskill, to generate an increased amount of enmity. Not this shenanigans with some abilities not getting boosted.

Also, don't you find WAR's unlimited resource to heal himself in addition to having it instant and castable on the move unfair to PLDs? PLDs have to manage MP, time their casts so that they don't get interrupted, and know who is in range and can be healed to generate maximum hate. In comparison, WARs just faceroll and gain enmity, no worries about survival just pop Bloodbath and Mighty Strikes!

Reduce MP cost for Holy Succor as well as make it instant cast, restore more MP from Outmaneuver, make one of PLD's moves convert TP to MP, make one of PLD's abilities solely for magic resistance, make shield blocks actually something that is meaningful outside of trash and XP, and fix Sentinel for crying out loud!

This is the kind of overdoing I was referring to in my OP. Second Wind, whilst recovering HP instantly and not using any resource, is available only every 45 seconds and heals for around 500-550 HP on a non-PGL/MNK.

Holy Succor on the other hand, is available every 10 seconds, heals target for ~1k, and when used on another party member it also heals he PLD for ~500.

I think that's quite balanced.

The idea isn't for PLD to play more like WAR. It's for PLD to be at least as effective a tank as WAR in many scenarios, but in it's own way.