Simple Fix to PLD

[SwordCoheir]

Umm, you seem to go to great lengths to disregard what people write. Prior to this update (and 1.21a for that matter) the damage negated by a shield was almost negligible to the amount of damage that could be taken. As I pointed out, I could partial parry something like Coincounters 100 Tonze Swing which would normally be devastating for either job to under 600, if I blocked the same move with my shield w/o Aegis Boon chances are I would be lucky to see 100-200 damage taken off the top of the 3k+ move.

Even with Divine Viel addition you would have had to block at least 15 times to make up for that one random partial parry, and pre-1.21a there was little difference in the proc rate between parry and shield so you'd take forever just to make up for that single random parry in mitigation. So I don't see how your argument's are any more valid than his.

However this recent shield update looks promising. I've thus far been negating 50% of the damage taken whenever I block with my Vintage Kite Shield regardless of how much or little damage I take. The block rate increase is noticeable, but frankly still feels a little lacking.

[Aceofspades]

Umm, you seem to go to great lengths to disregard what people write. Prior to this update (and 1.21a for that matter) the damage negated by a shield was almost negligible to the amount of damage that could be taken. As I pointed out, I could partial parry something like Coincounters 100 Tonze Swing which would normally be devastating for either job to under 600, if I blocked the same move with my shield w/o Aegis Boon chances are I would be lucky to see 100-200 damage taken off the top of the 3k+ move.

Even with Divine Viel addition you would have had to block at least 15 times to make up for that one random partial parry, and pre-1.21a there was little difference in the proc rate between parry and shield so you'd take forever just to make up for that single random parry in mitigation. So I don't see how your argument's are any more valid than his.

However this recent shield update looks promising. I've thus far been negating 50% of the damage taken whenever I block with my Vintage Kite Shield regardless of how much or little damage I take. The block rate increase is noticeable, but frankly still feels a little lacking.

realy? no I said counting on a parry to land when its needed is folly, and is folly to compare parry to block considering all the abilities PLD has to insure a block happens. you said it your self "w/o aegis boon" fact is , you can save aegis boon for that move if you soo wish, personally , I would perfer just to dodge the damn thing, not like he dosent give you 12 seconds to run away from it first and then another 15 to get back to your spot while he sits on his ass. again a garentee > a chance any day.

[SwordCoheir]

Yes, yes you do, or the main points posters make just fly over your head.

I was using 100 Tonze Swing as an example because it's one of the more devastating attacks out there and provides good solid contrast between the damage reduced by Parry AND Block. PLD probably had a significant advantage with a shield on weak mobs pre-1.22 because the block mechanics allowed them to take off 100-200 damage off the top, but falls very significantly short the more damaging moves tend to be, which is anything in this game that's worth half a salt. Basically put the weaker the mob the stronger shields mitigation is, the stronger the mob the stronger parry's mitigation stands out.

I try to avoid Aegis Boon as a solid argument between the two jobs because WAR gets Foresight which is a comparable ability and in both cases they do the same thing which is negate an attack. Pre-1.21a we only had outmaneuver which the block rate increase is laughable at best, providing little to no advantage over parry rates in combat.

Considering Divine Veils adjustment just happened using it as a crutch to help justify shields are fine in your previous post actually proved the opposite, if shields were "just fine" they wouldn't have made the adjustment to Divine Veil to begin with. If PLD's defense, damage mitigation, and enmity generation was so monumental over WAR no adjustments would be happening.

I admit I am like you in the sense that I have had little to no problems tanking on PLD with DD's/Mages going all out, but I've spent alot of time on both WAR and PLD testing gear, abilities, and game mechanics and comparing results to documented information to see thing's have really been in WAR's favor since job implementation.

But seriously man, you sound like the most anti-job buff person I've ever met.

[Enfarious]

I just can't wait til 1.22b to see if maybe this last "buff" would really help, maybe I'm missing something but my block rate isn't that much better, and the dmg reduction at this point seems like maybe 1% more than it was, I still eat 80% on blocked hits.
War also still out tanks pld. and after spending some time in a pt w/ ppl other than me on drg mnk and war the wars dmg output was higher than theirs and it's survivability far outshone all of ours. Maybe it's just me but every time I read something about WAR isn't overpower I start to turn rabid. That people try to defend WAR as being no better than every other class/job is like people defending hitler as not evil.

Not super on topic but not off either:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post668926

[SwordCoheir]

Just out of curiosity what shield are you using Enfarious? I've been blocking 50% damage across the board with a Vintage Kite Shield (I haven't tested on anything big yet like Ifrit mind you), but I'm just wondering how drastic the damage differences are with different shields.

[Enfarious]

Um it's not a kite, it's little I don't member the name, just a buckler. I'd think my rate would be higher with a smaller shield w/ less dmg reduction, but I'm talking me as a 50 and a 52 hittin me and there's ~20% reduction w/ 30% block rate, I gotta get another shield or 6 to see what it's really like w/ other larger shields.

[SwordCoheir]

Aright cool, I haven't messed with smaller shield sizes yet so I'm just trying to add some info since they changed shields around this last update.

[Enfarious]

Shit I just did CC and forgot to look at the diff after I got a diff shield lol

Drifting: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post659711

[MoarLegion]

A cursory look at WAR and PLD lead me to conclude they were designed within the idea of "main tank" and "off tank." The idea was that you bring a PLD as the person doing the bulk of the tanking, and the the WAR is there to tank when an additional tank is needed, but is primarily a DD.

The idea isn't that you CAN'T use a WAR as a MT, but that PLD, being wholly specialized in a tank role, should be the superior choice. My argument is rooted in Hybrid vs Specialized, because that is what each classes' design seems to point at: The hybrid WAR, the specialized PLD.

1) Reduce WAR damage:
Insofar as making a balanced class, this is the obvious route. Make them deal less damage to offset their ability to take hits. This allows them to still retain their versatility without outshining PLD in tanking.

2) Increase PLD enmity output/decrease WAR enmity output:
This requires prefacing: I believe that enmity control should be something a DD has to worry about. If going balls to the walls, willy nilly of enmity is required to clear content for a properly geared and competent party, that is poor design foremost.

If it remains that DD need to be capable of all cylinders firing DPS, then PLD needs to facilitate that completely by having more Enmity output, whereas a WAR tank should require more thought towards enmity control on behalf of the rest of the party.


3) Increase PLD survivability: This is actually pretty concurrent with the OP's suggestion. If a PLD took less damage or was able to mitigate that damage better(for example, say better self healing). Then this creates a situation where WAR, 5DD, 2WHM is mostly parallel to PLD 6DD WHM. Will WAR 5DD 2WHM get the job done? Certainly, but PLD 6DD WHM will have an easier time.

4) Increase PLD survivability and minor increase in enmity, decrease WAR enmity output:
This is my preferred answer, mostly because it brings the two classes down onto the same level. This also facilitates WAR 5DD 2WHM being roughly equal to PLD 6DD WHM.

How to achieve this balance has been brought up by many people, so I won't bother repeating it. However, I agree with several points brought up.

MP gaining ability, auto-refresh, or passive MP cost reduction.:
While I love the concept of resource management, it seems to me that MP is drained far too quickly. The MP pool tends to bottom out very quickly and cannot be regained nearly as quick or in amounts significant to do anything with.

Ideas:
Give Spirits Within a MP restore component(say 1/4th to 1/2 the damage dealt.)
Give Outmaneuver increased MP gain on block(I think any pld in their right mind would agree the current amount restored per block is laughable at best and useless at worst.)
(Stolen from WoW) Allow heals on the PLD to return a % of MP, either static or based on the amount healed. (Say, 2% of MAX mp every time the pld is healed, or 25% of the amount healed also restores MP)


Give Parry back to shield users, or vastly increase the mitigation provided by block.
Lets say parry completely negates damage. If something attacks 10 times for 10k total damage, and you parry twice, that means you've taken 2k less damage. Lets take the same numbers, except you shield block 4 attacks for 500 damage per blocked attack, you still take 2k less damage. Complete negation LOOKS better on paper, but so long as the end result is the effectively the same, it doesn't matter.
Likewise if you give parry back to PLD, you increase their survivability by increasing their means of mitigating damage.


Or just nerf WAR into the ground, then there's no choice BUT to pick a PLD.

[Aceofspades]

Although I agree PLD could be made easier to do in such a way it replaces a WHM, however I know it can be done as is now. It would take realy decent gear and a good WHM, the whm would have to be carefull not to over heal the PLD, wastefull mp and time spent on a pointless cure where it coulda been spent on a stone skin is usally the most basic mistake a WHM dose when main healing a GOOD <--key word, PLD tank. As far as damage deflection, honestly PLDs have all the tools they need now to do it realy well. That being said I do belive that a magic defense or generic (all) elemental resistance stat added to all tank gear should be done. somthing wrong when your brd takes as much damage from a magic attack as your tank. For self heals, Honestly, holy succor on a 30 second cool and instant cast with no cost to tp or mp would certainly do the trick. consider it the same effect as a steel syclone with rampage on EXCEPT you can count on it to work every single time , and magic healing poteincy / mind would increase its effectivness. Not having to worry about spell cast times or interuption would be a great asset to a job that is supposed to take hits and heal itself ( I thought this one was kinda a no-brainer). But I agree that when somone is good enough with PLD they can completly and safely replace the "back up" healer or second healer then you effectivly increase the DPS output of the party above that of a 1 war , 2 whm, 5 dd pt. Not there yet, but once our LS is ready to enter garuda , gona test 1 pld, 1 healer and 6 war set up. I belive if war was set up in a way to reduce as much enmity as possable and increase the DPS as much as possable , not only would this be a super surviable party but PLD would hold hate well, whm wouldnt me stressed for cures and DPS will be high enough to take garuda down in speed run fasion. I would encourage anyone who has the support to do so, to try this set up. Would be intrested to see the results of an unbiased attempt