Simple Fix to PLD

[NoctisUmbra]

I suppose it'd make sense if Enhanced Sentinel on GLA/PLD also increased the enmity bonus to something more substantial, like the on on Enhanced Antagonize for WAR.

[stanleyyoung]

war already has advantage over pld due to the fact that vit & str with point allotment bonus increases its auto attack dmg further enabling it to dps tank. then normally war has a high str value to do good dps anyways, also the same with vit for defense but more importantly high hp pool. war doesnt really need any other stat too much anyways besides str & vit. pld on the other hand like kiara said needs str,vit,dex, & mnd. plds point allotment bonus is wasted because its not a dps tank so making the bonus str & mnd really doesnt help too much. pld would beneifit if its point allotment bonus was vit and mnd because vit adds more defense/hp which any person with common sense would take over str anyday. And mnd helps with increased heals. so vit and mnd would make better combo allowing not only to have increase auto att dmg but more defense/hp and heal potency rather then str.

[Aceofspades]

I would just like to note that Mog is probably the fore most expert on this game then anyone posting right now, and although I do not agree with all of his opinions, the facts he states are facts and trying to win a debate by proclaiming your opinon > facts is ignorant. Personally, I have very little issues controlling hate with a total of +8 enmity on my entire gear, and with no HP materia what so ever I am only 200hp short that of my war in the same exact gear, and when parsed on multiple boss fights, my PLD takes roughly 10-5k less damage on avg then my war, making that 200 hp dismoly unconsequntial to the debate. I perfer my PLD tank over my WAR because I can infact replace a Healer allowing for a much better DD into the fight then WAR can do to keep up with. Simply put , both classes are fine, IF there was anything I would suggest to the devs to help PLD is to make Holy Succor instant cast, consume as much tp and second wind and put it on a 30-45 second cool down. This frees up mp for cures and stone skin.

[NoctisUmbra]

I would just like to note that Mog is probably the fore most expert on this game then anyone posting right now, and although I do not agree with all of his opinions, the facts he states are facts and trying to win a debate by proclaiming your opinon > facts is ignorant. Personally, I have very little issues controlling hate with a total of +8 enmity on my entire gear, and with no HP materia what so ever I am only 200hp short that of my war in the same exact gear, and when parsed on multiple boss fights, my PLD takes roughly 10-5k less damage on avg then my war, making that 200 hp dismoly unconsequntial to the debate. I perfer my PLD tank over my WAR because I can infact replace a Healer allowing for a much better DD into the fight then WAR can do to keep up with. Simply put , both classes are fine, IF there was anything I would suggest to the devs to help PLD is to make Holy Succor instant cast, consume as much tp and second wind and put it on a 30-45 second cool down. This frees up mp for cures and stone skin.

Hmm.. Where to start. First of I'll say I mean no disrespect to Mog. That being said, I'm not gonna ride his meat either. If a person is wrong, they are wrong. I've been wrong. So has he. He was wrong on multiple accounts in this thread. A lot of it was due to some misunderstandings, but we came to an agreement and all is fine.

Now let's get to all the wrongs of your post right now:

You may be holding enough hate. That statement alone however doesn't say much. You're better off posting some parse results to get my attention. How are your DDs performing? As much as I hate to refer to it, just as fusional said some pages back, when you've got DDs maxing out their job's dps then holding hate as much as possible becomes an issue. No matter how sufficiently you may hold hate on PLD, WAR can accumulate greater amounts of it and in shorter time. So WAR is better at it.

As for the HP difference, I literally just switched between my WAR and my PLD with no gear on and no party buff. On WAR I have 3421 HP naked. On PLD I have 2924 HP naked. That's a difference of 497 HP, not 200. With a party buff, this difference becomes greater.

You say you take 10-15k less damage as a PLD. This tells me you parse since you got that information. Good time to post some parse results. Unfortunately a simple value like that doesn't hold much weight without comparing it to how much total damage is taken in both scenarios as well as how long the fights lasted. Also which bosses? Some are much more physically inclined than others.

Finally, Holy Succor. I can respect your opinion of suggesting they make it instant cast. I do, however, disagree. I would settle perhaps for PLD not getting interrupted while casting it. It is a 10s recast and a massive healing tool. PLD also has a multitude of ways to regain MP. Also, Second Wind does not cost TP.

Now, you can come into my thread and post your opinion on PLD like everyone else. However, coming here and passing off incorrect information as factual and using that to then suggest that Mog is right and his thoughts are more valid than the rest of us, which make quite the large number of people, is ignorant and fanatical behavior.

[Dzian]

, I have very little issues controlling hate with a total of +8 enmity on my entire gear,.

Controlling hate is a team effort. as a tank you generate as much hate as possible you don't really do much to control it. you generate as much emnity as possible. the more emnity you generate the more offensive your dds can be.

the biggest influance in hate control is the rest of your party. your blm nukes likes crazy. his hate box goes red. now he needs to control it so he decides to either use chameleon, cast freeze or simply stop casting for a few seconds to recover some mp while his hate box goes back to yellow/green. This is the biggest influance on hate control. the actual control of emnity has very little to do with the tank.

No matter how sufficiently you may hold hate on PLD, WAR can accumulate greater amounts of it and in shorter time. So WAR is better at it..

thus because a war can generate more emnity in a given time frame the dds in turn can spend more time doing damage and less time controlling emnity.

[Enfarious]

Controlling hate is a team effort. as a tank you generate as much hate as possible you don't really do much to control it. you generate as much emnity as possible. the more emnity you generate the more offensive your dds can be.

the biggest influance in hate control is the rest of your party. your blm nukes likes crazy. his hate box goes red. now he needs to control it so he decides to either use chameleon, cast freeze or simply stop casting for a few seconds to recover some mp while his hate box goes back to yellow/green. This is the biggest influance on hate control. the actual control of emnity has very little to do with the tank.



thus because a war can generate more emnity in a given time frame the dds in turn can spend more time doing damage and less time controlling emnity.

Of course your WHM is the one person that is "forced" to ignore all of this in order to maintain the tank/melees, which is where PLD having dmg mitigation (PDT and MDT) and better healing comes into play, ease the strain on the WHM more than what a WAR can and you've a viable tank again.

DDs are supposed to pull hate, sorry I am of the opinion that the best test of my tanks playing was pulling hate and seeing if s/he could/would get it back quickly, of course I was a DRK and I spent a lot of time on the ground. Now though, now I can shed that hate once I get it, maybe take 1 hit, I'll never stop testing my tanks, but only when hate shedding abilities are up. I'm not a fan of dying, or of overworking healers, but if things are going smoothly and a little excitement is needed why not.
I probably shouldn't post the above but I'm sleep deprived and can regret it later.

[Arcell]

Of course your WHM is the one person that is "forced" to ignore all of this in order to maintain the tank/melees, which is where PLD having dmg mitigation (PDT and MDT) and better healing comes into play, ease the strain on the WHM more than what a WAR can and you've a viable tank again.

DDs are supposed to pull hate, sorry I am of the opinion that the best test of my tanks playing was pulling hate and seeing if s/he could/would get it back quickly, of course I was a DRK and I spent a lot of time on the ground. Now though, now I can shed that hate once I get it, maybe take 1 hit, I'll never stop testing my tanks, but only when hate shedding abilities are up. I'm not a fan of dying, or of overworking healers, but if things are going smoothly and a little excitement is needed why not.
I probably shouldn't post the above but I'm sleep deprived and can regret it later.

Well first off, Parry is actually superior to Block in a few ways. A full parry (foresight) reduces a physical attack to 0 damage. 0. Warrior has greater potential damage mitigation than Paladin, especially since blocks aren't very effective.

Second, DDs are NOT supposed to pull hate. If you're a DD and you're pulling hate, you're doing something wrong. You should try to maximize your damage and ride into the red sure but you should never pull hate. Pulling hate can cause some very unfortunate issues for the party, such as getting everyone killed. If you're dealing with anything with a conal AoE attack, if someone pulls hate and that enemy is now facing the mages and archers for instance, now they are going to get hit with it. With Uraeus and Dodore it's petrify, with Coincounter it's 100 tonze, with Buffalo it's Onrush. A lot of bad situations. Enmity management is a group effort.

[Enfarious]

Well first off, Parry is actually superior to Block in a few ways. A full parry (foresight) reduces a physical attack to 0 damage. 0. Warrior has greater potential damage mitigation than Paladin, especially since blocks aren't very effective.

Second, DDs are NOT supposed to pull hate. If you're a DD and you're pulling hate, you're doing something wrong. You should try to maximize your damage and ride into the red sure but you should never pull hate. Pulling hate can cause some very unfortunate issues for the party, such as getting everyone killed. If you're dealing with anything with a conal AoE attack, if someone pulls hate and that enemy is now facing the mages and archers for instance, now they are going to get hit with it. With Uraeus and Dodore it's petrify, with Coincounter it's 100 tonze, with Buffalo it's Onrush. A lot of bad situations. Enmity management is a group effort.

First part, that's what I said the problem is, it's broken, the traditional Uber tank is like you just said, not as good as the next choice. Perhaps I didn't say it very clearly, rereading my own post I can see where it sounded like I was actually saying that PLD has better mitigation than WAR as is, what I meant was those things would be what make PLD Uber tank again.

Second, sorry I may have phrased that poorly, when I say pull hate, I mean into the red, not have it chasing me about, I use hate shedding abilities too, I'm not a moron lol. I thought that I said that, but when I posted that I think I was working on ~2hrs sleep in 48 hrs due to some truly off the wall insomnia.

[Aceofspades]

mog is correct. PLD is not broken, the dungeons and boss fights offer little challange to the tank as far as taking damage thus allowing tanks with weaker defenses to successfully tank, and in turn allowing a high dps tank speed up the time it takes to win the fights. this , and this alone is the only reason WAR is suggested over PLD, hate controll is not an issue with either tank and survivabilty is much higher with PLD. one tank is offensive the other is deffensive. that simple. Claiming WAR is superior in every aspect of tanking is just simply incorrect. to state that def dose nothing for damage deflection is also incorrect. as far as magic damage gose, PLD is still the best equiped tank to avoid magic damage. these , my friend , are all facts.

[Vire]

mog is correct. PLD is not broken, the dungeons and boss fights offer little challange to the tank as far as taking damage thus allowing tanks with weaker defenses to successfully tank, and in turn allowing a high dps tank speed up the time it takes to win the fights. this , and this alone is the only reason WAR is suggested over PLD, hate controll is not an issue with either tank and survivabilty is much higher with PLD. one tank is offensive the other is deffensive. that simple. Claiming WAR is superior in every aspect of tanking is just simply incorrect. to state that def dose nothing for damage deflection is also incorrect. as far as magic damage gose, PLD is still the best equiped tank to avoid magic damage. these , my friend , are all facts.

I don't know if your trolling or just that dumb. Also don't listen to mog he has been wrong as much as he has been right.