Simple Fix to PLD

[Majidah]

The point is, a PLD tank with a single WHM should feel natural and safe, whereas a WAR tank with a single WHM should continue to be a challenge.

Take a war's ability to normally tank away and you make all parties dependant on one of the least played jobs in the game.

I really don't miss sitting out in jeuno waiting for a tank to log on or having to disband because he had to leave.

[NoctisUmbra]

Take a war's ability to normally tank away and you make all parties dependant on one of the least played jobs in the game.

I propose no changes to WAR. None at all. Only to PLD.

[Brannigan]

WAR, like many of the DDs, lacks an effective healing utility. It is dependent on an off-class Second Wind and Bloodbath.

Also, jobs were never designed to be effective for solo/lowman. Honestly now.

Even when they first introduced Paladin they mentioned how it would be sacrificing HP from GLA for greater defense and powerful white magic. Alongside that I've analyzed a PLD's skill-set and used SE's own design as support for my proposed fix.

Now if you believe WAR to be over-powered and much too well-rounded as opposed to the other jobs, then you must be suggesting that it be nerfed. You said it, not me.

Uh, off-class abilities are part of the job. It's one of the reasons Paladin sucks - its subclasses are horrible. You can't discount second wind just because a warrior needs to level pgl a bit to pick it up. Many jobs are perfectly well rounded for their role - monk has decent survivability despite doing great damage, white mage retained some good survivability skills and can put up decent damage against mobs like coincounter. Warrior is a perfectly crafted tank and killing machine that's far better for soloing than marauder. The idea that jobs are for party play only kind of goes out the window when pretty much every job is way better than its class counterpart at everything.

Bringing up paladin's damage to somewhere within the realm of not laughable and its hp up by like 200 would leave us with:

warrior:
-tanking
-boss damage
-aoe damage

paladin:
-tanking
-slightly lower boss damage
-some party healing

[NoctisUmbra]

My reason for mentioning Second Wind as off-class was meant to point out that it is lower in effect to the 900+ heal it is on PGL/MNK. I dont mean to discount any off-class skills.

Also, I suppose it's worth mentioning that I am not particularly opposed to PLD getting a buff to damage. I don't see it as the primary problem is all. GLA has been a defensive class from the very beginning, and PLD is naturally the same. When it comes to offering a solution for that, I would suggest them adding 2-handed great swords with high base damage to offer flexibility and choice, though that would be more for GLA than PLD. I don't want to derail the thread so I'll leave it at that.

[Razor]

First let me say I entirely agree with your post, but I think you need to add one more ingredient to the perfect PLD recipe: enmity.

The bigger problem is hate control. I used to main GLA/PLD since OB but after WAR came out as a logical minded person I had to make the switch to WAR. I have challenged several PLDs to a "tanking contest" where I let them pull a mob, build hate on a mob, and then go crazy on it. Sadly, with JUST regular melee, I get into yellow, my first ws combo gets me red. Even after they have it for 30 seconds if I start my enmity rot there is absolutely nothing they can do to get the mob back.

In that lies my point, it is inefficient to use the PLD tank over a WAR tank because the DDs are handicapped. Not only does it make the fight more stressful but also drastically increases the length of the fight. Even if PLD takes less damage, the total amount of damage sustained is still higher because of a longer fight; for example:

Ifrit with WAR tank takes us an average of 6 minutes, Ifrit on PLD took closer to 10~11 (when he did a lot of plumes, if not his regen carries the fight to 15~)

Say ifrit hits my warrior for 250 damage per second. 6x60 = 360 sec x 250 dmg = 90,000 damage sustained
For paladin, we'll be generous and say 180 dps (20% damage reduct). 10x60 = 600 x 180 = 108,000+. (Longer fights and this number gets goofy large.)

Point is, PLD can get all the defense in the world but unless DDs can use their full strength on the boss, PLD will remain inferior. Not just for speed runs but for safety and smoothness of the fight. My LS has a MNK who on ifrit crits howling fist for 850+. On PLD that attack will pull hate off me even as late as phase 2. On WAR he can howling fist, simian trash, dragon kick, and hundred all in succession with the mob still placed on me. Why would we choose a tanking option that requires him to basically throw away all his dps?

[Daniel_Fury]

First let me say I entirely agree with your post, but I think you need to add one more ingredient to the perfect PLD recipe: enmity.

The bigger problem is hate control. I used to main GLA/PLD since OB but after WAR came out as a logical minded person I had to make the switch to WAR. I have challenged several PLDs to a "tanking contest" where I let them pull a mob, build hate on a mob, and then go crazy on it. Sadly, with JUST regular melee, I get into yellow, my first ws combo gets me red. Even after they have it for 30 seconds if I start my enmity rot there is absolutely nothing they can do to get the mob back.

In that lies my point, it is inefficient to use the PLD tank over a WAR tank because the DDs are handicapped. Not only does it make the fight more stressful but also drastically increases the length of the fight. Even if PLD takes less damage, the total amount of damage sustained is still higher because of a longer fight; for example:

Ifrit with WAR tank takes us an average of 6 minutes, Ifrit on PLD took closer to 10~11 (when he did a lot of plumes, if not his regen carries the fight to 15~)

Say ifrit hits my warrior for 250 damage per second. 6x60 = 360 sec x 250 dmg = 90,000 damage sustained
For paladin, we'll be generous and say 180 dps (20% damage reduct). 10x60 = 600 x 180 = 108,000+. (Longer fights and this number gets goofy large.)

Point is, PLD can get all the defense in the world but unless DDs can use their full strength on the boss, PLD will remain inferior. Not just for speed runs but for safety and smoothness of the fight. My LS has a MNK who on ifrit crits howling fist for 850+. On PLD that attack will pull hate off me even as late as phase 2. On WAR he can howling fist, simian trash, dragon kick, and hundred all in succession with the mob still placed on me. Why would we choose a tanking option that requires him to basically throw away all his dps?

I don't see how so many people have issues with hate on a PLD o.o
It's slower to start than a WAR but that's about it. I downed Ifrit in 6 minutes, as a PLD tank so bviously my DPS didn't have to hold back.

My observations:

I feel like my MP is unlimited most of the time.
I noticed my WAR got hit for a 2.8k VotR on chimera (ouch), I have never been hit this hard on PLD in that fight (Most I've seen is 2.5k).
WAR's Vengeance does not cut Magic dmg by 50%, only physical dmg. Sentinel only cuts 30% on War but 50% on PLD.

My issue with PLD:

No greatsword ; ;

No seriously, I see why people prefer Warrior but I do not see an issue with Paladin in performance of being a TANK.

[Majidah]

I don't see how so many people have issues with hate on a PLD o.o
It's slower to start than a WAR but that's about it. I downed Ifrit in 6 minutes, as a PLD tank so bviously my DPS didn't have to hold back.

My observations:

I feel like my MP is unlimited most of the time.
I noticed my WAR got hit for a 2.8k VotR on chimera (ouch), I have never been hit this hard on PLD in that fight (Most I've seen is 2.5k).
WAR's Vengeance does not cut Magic dmg by 50%, only physical dmg. Sentinel only cuts 30% on War but 50% on PLD.

My issue with PLD:

No greatsword ; ;

No seriously, I see why people prefer Warrior but I do not see an issue with Paladin in performance of being a TANK.

If you ask me having to wait for PLD to build hate while WAR can pretty much do it instantly isn't acceptable. PLD should get a huge enmity generating skill on a big timer, or antagonize.

[Daniel_Fury]

If you ask me having to wait for PLD to build hate while WAR can pretty much do it instantly isn't acceptable. PLD should get a huge enmity generating skill on a big timer, or antagonize.

I don't find a 10 second warm up to be a huge loss but having an instant start would be sexy.
However, it isn't the issue. It does not mean they perform badly, they just start slower because we can't collusion pull or chuck antagonize on.
Spirits within is a beast hate spike and all it takes is one auto attack - divine veil - phalanx combo.
Thats my cue for the party to start.

[Enfarious]

First let me say I entirely agree with your post, but I think you need to add one more ingredient to the perfect PLD recipe: enmity.

The bigger problem is hate control. I used to main GLA/PLD since OB but after WAR came out as a logical minded person I had to make the switch to WAR. I have challenged several PLDs to a "tanking contest" where I let them pull a mob, build hate on a mob, and then go crazy on it. Sadly, with JUST regular melee, I get into yellow, my first ws combo gets me red. Even after they have it for 30 seconds if I start my enmity rot there is absolutely nothing they can do to get the mob back.

In that lies my point, it is inefficient to use the PLD tank over a WAR tank because the DDs are handicapped. Not only does it make the fight more stressful but also drastically increases the length of the fight. Even if PLD takes less damage, the total amount of damage sustained is still higher because of a longer fight; for example:

Ifrit with WAR tank takes us an average of 6 minutes, Ifrit on PLD took closer to 10~11 (when he did a lot of plumes, if not his regen carries the fight to 15~)

Say ifrit hits my warrior for 250 damage per second. 6x60 = 360 sec x 250 dmg = 90,000 damage sustained
For paladin, we'll be generous and say 180 dps (20% damage reduct). 10x60 = 600 x 180 = 108,000+. (Longer fights and this number gets goofy large.)

Point is, PLD can get all the defense in the world but unless DDs can use their full strength on the boss, PLD will remain inferior. Not just for speed runs but for safety and smoothness of the fight. My LS has a MNK who on ifrit crits howling fist for 850+. On PLD that attack will pull hate off me even as late as phase 2. On WAR he can howling fist, simian trash, dragon kick, and hundred all in succession with the mob still placed on me. Why would we choose a tanking option that requires him to basically throw away all his dps?

To the first, your absolutely right, PLD loses hate quickly but you've got to keep in mind that the enmity loss is due in part to the dmg they take, if that dmg is reduced their enmity loss will also be reduced, combine that with more heals from pld > pt_member you also have more enmity generated, it doesn't mean they don't need more than they have, just that the dmg reduction trait that's been suggested about 37mil times throughout the forums would help with more than just reduced dmg.

The second half your missing an element, if you can drop a healer from those fights because the pld doesn't need one focused just on him anymore you can add another DD/Mage which will more than offset the Wars DPS (assuming they're decent for the fight) and lead to a generally shorter fight than with a war tanking.

End result, reusing your calcs. but w/ new pt makeups:

WAR(Tank) MNK MNK DRG BRD BLM WHM WHM:
Ifrit with WAR tank takes us an average of 6 minutes
Say ifrit hits my warrior for 250 damage per second.
6x60 = 360 sec x 250 dmg = 90,000 damage sustained

PLD(Tank) MNK MNK DRG DRG(even a war focused on DPS instead of Tanking) BRD BLM WHM:
PLD w/ added dmg from a second DRG instead a second WHM avg. 4mins
For paladin, we'll be generous and say 180 dps (20% damage reduct).
4x60 = 240 x 180 = 43,200 damage sustained

The fights get shorter w/ the pld because you don't need a second healer, your pld is that second, that extra DD makes fights faster overall and the PLD has less trouble holding hate because of the reduced dmg=reduced enmity loss.

[Firon]

First let me say I entirely agree with your post, but I think you need to add one more ingredient to the perfect PLD recipe: enmity.

The bigger problem is hate control. I used to main GLA/PLD since OB but after WAR came out as a logical minded person I had to make the switch to WAR. I have challenged several PLDs to a "tanking contest" where I let them pull a mob, build hate on a mob, and then go crazy on it. Sadly, with JUST regular melee, I get into yellow, my first ws combo gets me red. Even after they have it for 30 seconds if I start my enmity rot there is absolutely nothing they can do to get the mob back.

In that lies my point, it is inefficient to use the PLD tank over a WAR tank because the DDs are handicapped. Not only does it make the fight more stressful but also drastically increases the length of the fight. Even if PLD takes less damage, the total amount of damage sustained is still higher because of a longer fight; for example:

Ifrit with WAR tank takes us an average of 6 minutes, Ifrit on PLD took closer to 10~11 (when he did a lot of plumes, if not his regen carries the fight to 15~)

Say ifrit hits my warrior for 250 damage per second. 6x60 = 360 sec x 250 dmg = 90,000 damage sustained
For paladin, we'll be generous and say 180 dps (20% damage reduct). 10x60 = 600 x 180 = 108,000+. (Longer fights and this number gets goofy large.)

Point is, PLD can get all the defense in the world but unless DDs can use their full strength on the boss, PLD will remain inferior. Not just for speed runs but for safety and smoothness of the fight. My LS has a MNK who on ifrit crits howling fist for 850+. On PLD that attack will pull hate off me even as late as phase 2. On WAR he can howling fist, simian trash, dragon kick, and hundred all in succession with the mob still placed on me. Why would we choose a tanking option that requires him to basically throw away all his dps?

This notc while i agree with what you say about pld but war does need a nerf and its only skills that come from gla this is the problem right now to me.

WAR can self heal slightly but it can Second wind, Bloodbath, and hp healed from crts. Has the same enmity tools as pld, Has higher hp and they both take same dmg, it also does more dmg, and dmg reduction abilities.

PLD just has lower hp/dmg, self heals, enmity tools, and takes same dmg as war.

Many may not agree but war does not need gla skills to tank to me, it has to much, and they should take those hate gaining skills and give it an Dd sub so it further keep hate thru dmg. WAR should be holding hate through crts and ws dmg and provoking. While pld should be holding hate thru skills and cure's and taking less dmg.

I don't think any of war skills needs to be change just its subs Gla sub just gives it to much, this is how i see it if war didn't do the dmg it did it would be having the same problems as pld now but no one would complain cause they both would be equal.